Plus Size Models (56)

1 Name: moonphase : 2010-02-27 13:44 ID:pBSecoAl

I was reading about Crystal Renn a few days back. What do people think of plus size models? Should they be on the catwalk?
FOR-
They should because they represent how many women actually look, which will be healthier on impressionable minds and for the models themselves.

AGAINST-
Modelling is about the artistry of the clothes. If a plus size model goes on the catwalk, her body is more the focus of discussion rather than the outfit. (The idea of having very thin models was that they almost are like hangers; they allow the outfit to be the focus.)
http://thetrendsetter.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/beautiful-plus-size-models/

7 Name: Tristana : 2010-02-27 15:28 ID:r00gkptr

I agree with you girls.

And same, Moonphase (though I tend to wear like... size 14). I'm not unhappy - well, I do have the traditional: Awww, this dress is so cute... nah, not gonna wear it (don't get me started on swimsuits). I found that cute top at New Look - it was cinched and everything... but bottom part was too large and I felt like being pregnant.

And ever since I arrived in the UK, I'm like: what the hell? Don't they have normal shirts that stop at the waist? And all 'sweaters' would go to the knees - not good when you have curves.
But I dress as a goth, so problem is solved: corsets and dresses are love. And heels became the norm.

Sizes are relatives. 14 is 46 in France, 50 in Italy but 44 in Switzerland. Never gonna get clothes in Italy.

Everyone wants normal women to feel ugly/fat - which is stupid: all magazine's photos are shopped - and everyone can look awesome with that machine.
But the thing is - I don't know for you, but when guys or girls compliment me, I turn them down, saying 'I'm not, stop trying to be nice!'.

But remember Moonphase: bones are NOT nice to huggle with.

8 Name: HoldenCaulfield : 2010-02-27 16:27 ID:rr0vp0e+

>>4

I'm not trying to justify the use of thin models, I'm sorry if it came across that way. You just have to accept that it is industry standard to use size 4 - 6 girls to model clothes.

These people don't design clothes with the intention to make others feel bad, you cannot tell me that Jean Paul Gaultier wants us to feel as if we couldn't wear his stunning creations, or that Vivienne Westwood hates us because we have a few pounds to spare. That's the advertisers fault.

A lot of the issue is that we see these tiny dresses or these gorgeous tops and automatically assume we should look good in them; you have to dress to your shape, your style and your colouring. Fashion is not an easy thing to master.

Also; I'd just like to point out that I am a size 14. I understand the pain that every girl goes through. I've come home in tears because a dress didn't fit and then decided that I should diet away for months to get into it, it's not the case, you have to be realistic. Horizontal stripes do not suit me, my boobs are too big for fitted shirts and "spray on" jeans are a no, but we can all dress like Lady Gaga when you realise that if you don't conform to the industry you'll stop worrying.

9 Name: Tristana : 2010-02-27 16:56 ID:r00gkptr

Sorry, I didn't mean to actually take it all on you - I was more like ranting about the industry.

And as usual, my command of English dwindles as night goes on. The thing is, I don't think they think that way - the creators. But as it is art, I tend to think that money shouldn't be involved. It would be like... telling Michelangelo to do the Sixtin Chapel's roof only in black ad white because it would have been cheaper or something.

Diet programmes and fashion mags (and all) work together anyway^^.

And agree for Lady Gaga - yeah right... I love Lady Gaga.^^

10 Name: Anonymous : 2010-02-27 17:50 ID:J302R7jg

AHAHAHA!!!

There're actually women who get 'affected' by pictures of skinny models?! AHAHAHA! Crying because a dress doesn't fit?!

Get lives, all of you.

11 Name: Bola : 2010-02-28 03:06 ID:kZ+4eOQl

I don't understand why you're not affected by the amount of normal peple on here. Bugger off.

12 Name: moonphase : 2010-02-28 05:25 ID:pBSecoAl

>>9 Maybe they don't want us to feel bad; but you have to admit they must not care about their models, at least. Models have died trying to become thinner or remaining thin. I watched America's Next Top Model once, (not an accurate portrayal, I'm sure, but still.) In one of the tasks, the girls had to run around meeting designers and doing a 'catwalk' for them. This one model was very thin and very tall (typical model, basically!) But she was, this designer complained, too fat!! I swear she was a thin girl, one of those ones who has hip bones jutting out and what not, but they still had to squeeze her into the jeans and dresses, and then constantly bitched. Needless to say the girls confidence was shattered and she had to go on a diet. It was awful how that man made her feel.

13 Name: sharingansupergirl : 2010-02-28 13:12 ID:r6lk11ko

@Tristana, (Loving your style, and I haven't been swimming for how many years either) I'm more gothic punk because I've got awkward body shape, eg- non-existent chest and solar system ass to make up for it, and I think they enhance me rather well. Plus I've always loved style so added bonus. Before I found it though, I was wearing all my mothers baggy clothes because I had no confidence in my figure. Might've had something to do with mags and models, but can't be sure. I don't care much about their clothes anymore, just the expressions of dire pain as they try to pose hanging over a lake/volcano/anything-else-remotely-odd.

Mighta hit the nail on the head of the cheapness for fabrics, and maybe being skinny reduces the need for models specific for the clothes. Mind, obese (I mean obese, not sizes 14,16 etc) models aren't setting themselves great health examples either.

Bola, I should add, you made me laugh (and you owned Anonymous)so I respect you greatly.

14 Name: Anonymous : 2010-02-28 13:43 ID:J302R7jg

`Oh noes!

This morning, I was looking for a top but nothing looked good over my HUUUGE chest (32 E, guys! ;D). And then there were all these pics of rake-figured models in my magazine, so I CRIED. Why can't I rock the 'stoned waif' look?!'

Wow, you're all so easily influenced by advertisements. You're shallow, pathetic, and you make me ashamed to be female. Grow the hell up and get a sense of perspective.

15 Name: sharingansupergirl : 2010-02-28 14:02 ID:r6lk11ko

Although slightly off modelling chat, yet somehow still related, I find, and maybe others also, I am not influenced by airbrushing or anorexia or whatever. Like, an example off the top of my head, actress's playing roles in 16th century or something and having perfect makeup and hair when really it's not very convincing. Suppose same goes with modelling, however, airbrushed stuff and shit, totally not buying it and it's really not that persuasive.

And Anonymous, please don't generalize. It's not wrong to want to look good in something you like and it is depressing when you can't; perhaps, yes, it's even as pathetic as making remarks at strangers for sharing an opinion. You shouldn't be ashamed to be female just because a few people can relate to each other.

I quite like my solar-system sized ass, actually, at least I can pass on the "moon" joke. Poorly, perhaps, but still. Anyone else fancy admitting what they like about themselves?

16 Name: RayRay : 2010-02-28 14:11 ID:knOboiw9

@moonphase...

I'm a size 10/12 in bottoms normally, and a 6/8 in tops since I'm distinctly pear shaped, however I don't really find that seeing waifer thin models decreases my self confidence or my ability to wear the things that I want to wear.

As for shops like new look, I never have trouble finding things that fit me, so either your new look is crap or you're just looking at the wrong sizes in the first place. I agree that some people can't carry a certain look - I for example cannot do floral, but not because of my shape, because of how I look in general and the way I carry myself.

>>15 Okay, I hate to say it because you're an evil nasty troll, but you do make a valid point ~hits head off desk~...

It's very shallow to become upset just because you can't find clothes that fit you, and proves to a certain extent that you're being affected by these skinny people who you profess to dislike...and turning down compliments is an instant no no, no matter how much you don't believe them - learn to love how you are and you'll stop caring about the clothes and you'll find something else. my flatmate is a size 16/18 and she always has the most amazing clothes. However Anon, there was no need to be like that, its just cruel and demeaning, and YOU are the one who is pathetic for saying things like that. You should get a life and a proper opinion instead of just existing to upset people.


17 Name: sharingansupergirl : 2010-02-28 14:22 ID:r6lk11ko

I was looking for that word: pear-shaped. (Might I ask which body shape is the prefered one for models? Providing you still have one when modelling, possibly not.)

@RayRay: You speak wisely. Taking compliments rather than rejecting them, and wearing the things you want to wear rather than caring about your size. But everyone's prone to slipping sometimes, like when it's things about your size that prevent you from wearing what you want. But then again, there's always something that suits you more elsewhere...

18 Name: RayRay : 2010-02-28 14:27 ID:knOboiw9

I'll admit that I won't wear something if it makes me look lumpy, but honestly, I'm a massive fan of oversized shirts, I just cinch them at the waist so they're more flattering. Can get away with anything with a good belt.

And the preferred body shape for models is just skinny. washboard thin unfortunately. They normally don't even want them to have a chest.

19 Name: moonphase : 2010-02-28 14:43 ID:pBSecoAl

Tbh, I have had depression and anxiety since my early teens, so my self esteem and self image is often inaccurate. I probably look fine (my rational brain says so) but I always feel like I look bad or stupid or ugly. Like I mention at >>7, I think I am affected by these lovely slim models and actresses, which embarrases me because I know it shouldn't. But being proud and confident is easier said than done.
Oh, no one worry about anon. If we were all 'I'm big and proud'or 'I'm lovely and thin' they'd bitch about that as well. Its best to just ignore them, because they're not even a good troll; its boring, sloppy jokes lazily delivered with no sense of irony/satire or even truth, they're just trying to be annoying. It's the sort of humour badly behaved five year olds have, so lets stop giving them the attention the lonely fool clearly craves so badly.

20 Name: HoldenCaulfield : 2010-02-28 15:03 ID:FjLjW4pz

I just think that if you wear what you feel comfortable in, what you like and how you like it there should be no issue.

Fashion and models are a world unto their own, it's been slim models since the 60s when all of fashion changed. To be liberated with our fashion we chose slim spokesmodels, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

If you study the history of fashion you'll see that our attitudes have changed a long with our lifestyles; sugar and fat used to be expensive comodities - the larger you were, the richer and more beautiful you appeared. Now the opposite of that is true in both senses.

If you let the industry bother you, you will become affected, few girls develop eating disorders due to skinny models. The root cause for most cases of E.D.N.O.S is bullying from a young age and stress in other aspects of life. If you know anyone recovering from an eating disorder they'll most likely tell you they wanted to feel in control, not fit into the latest Chanel dress.

21 Name: Anonymous : 2010-02-28 15:34 ID:J302R7jg

>>17 Dude, I INVENTED the valid point.

What the hell does it matter if you look fat or ugly or whatever else? You wanna impress? You wanna be judged nicely, make a good impression? Whoever is impressed by that stuff isn't worth impressing. If they look down on you because you're pudgy, it says more about them than it does about you.

The fact that you all mindlessly conform to this shallow philosophy means you can't complain about starving models. Get some autonomy. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

22 Name: RayRay : 2010-02-28 17:05 ID:knOboiw9

How is anyone here conforming to a shallow philosophy?

23 Name: moonphase : 2010-03-01 09:36 ID:pBSecoAl

Well, anyway, the link between eating disorders, body dysmorphia (probably spelt that wrong) and fashion is very tenuous. So what about the actual models themselves? We sometimes hear of models dying, so een though the fabrics can be very expensive, should the fashion industry still try and keep the level of thiness under some kind of control? I know some size six girls (I'm using British sizes,btw) and they are lovely and eat well. But I think a size four woman is too small. But whatdo you guys think? Also, if you are for thin models, please express yourself freely, this is a debate, not an attack thread (well, ignoring the trolls, lol!)

24 Name: Tristana : 2010-03-01 09:54 ID:wjZnuJsp

Because we care about how we look and - though it's not a really good thing - because external perception can influence the way we feel?

Anyway, as for turning down compliments... it's a habit and I can't change it - I try, but when you have men oggling your -most of the time corseted- chest, it just makes you want to slap the jerks. And unfortunately, either pervs or friends -nice ones - are those saying it. And let's face it, I'm blunt. I say what I think, even when it's bad.

I agree with Moonphase - for ages, parents and people were nasty because of how I looked and the way I dressed - my grandma stopped calling me 'fatty' when I got so pissed off I actually yelled at her and insulted her -sorta. It's mean but I've been patient for years.
So you can be ookay with how you look and disregard magazines stuff BUT! There will always be some ass to remind you that you are not like that and at lenegth, either you get defiant, get angry and feel down.

And here's my problem: no matter how stupid the system can be, it doesn't mean that I like getting insulting because of my opinion. Sorta.

So Anon... we shouldn't care if we are ugly or not? You might not care, but I think that it's pretty normal to want to look good - even for guys. For my part, I do care, and if I wear make up, buy fitting clothes and all, it's because I like it. Not because I think everyone would like it. It's not a question of being accepted, it's a matter of looking into the mirror and actually liking what you see.

And to answer your question, Moonphase, I really like... let's say the top half of my body - face included. And OMG!!! Not even size E - close to it, but not quite. What am I to doooooo? crying

Guess I stand between the wallfower and the narcissist to some extent. grins

25 Name: Tristana : 2010-03-01 10:00 ID:wjZnuJsp

>>4 Depends on the person. Some persons are naturally thin. My friend who is very thin eats pretty much anything but she never quite gained any weight...

Guess I went kinda... berserk on my previous post though.

I heard that they actually tried to get some rules according to size on the catwalk but some designers - for a show in Spain I think - kinda went on a strike and said that they would refuse to present their collections if those rules were to be imposed.

However, such consideration didn't mean I wasn't hooked to my screen when Galliano's collection was running - can't help but appreciate his creativity.^^

Maybe they should vary their models a bit more? Like, keeping them at a healthy weight?
One of my roomate was doing some modelling when in Latvia. She's really tall and thin but she is a fit girl, so... (It just makes me and my other roomates go all: you're sooooo pretty, that's unfair!! - as a joke)

26 Name: Anonymous : 2010-03-01 11:30 ID:J302R7jg

Right. So you can't like yourself unless you look good. Your physical appearance can make or break your confidence.

HOW IS THIS NOT SHALLOW?!

27 Name: Tristana : 2010-03-01 11:44 ID:wjZnuJsp

Wow, you found that all by yourself? I am unmasked... Just when I thought that nobody would notice just how... shallow... I am. flails

Hum. I probably shouldn't bother answering you, but I'm a nice person, so I'll explain:
I was talking about confidence in physical appearance, as in, feeling good when looking good. The confidence I have in my intellectual abilities and other qualities has nothing to do with the way I look, and I believe it's pretty much the same for everyone. Looking good is a bonus - because I don't need that, since I'm so awesome.

However, not being able to see such differences unless someone explain them is one particular 'quality' of every troll.

28 Name: RayRay : 2010-03-02 01:51 ID:EPm3gv7L

>>27

If you're going to troll - at least try and make yourself sound intelligent? Yes?

You had one valid point, and you have now, officially, failed by not backing it up with anymore more than the childish, petty insults we've all come to expect on this board from people such as yourself.

If you're not going to contribute anything other than calling people 'shallow' and making half-assed assumptions, then do us all a favour, and piss off.

29 Name: moonphase : 2010-03-03 13:32 ID:pBSecoAl

As said in >>21 by HoldenCaulfiel, there is a tenuous link between eating disorders, body dysmophia (sp) and fashion, so lets move on.
As I said in >>24, is the fashion industry kind on its models? They are under pressure to stay thin, aren't they? We have heard of models dying before. However, there are cases of ballerina's who have starved themselves to death also-yet no changes have been called for the ballerina world (as far as I know.) So is it just girls under general pressure,or is the industry pushing them to be too thin?
Also Tristana pointed out in >>25 there are naturally thin girls, so are we being unfair by assuming they are all or mostly, unhealthy women/victims?

30 Name: Anonymous : 2010-03-03 17:10 ID:J302R7jg

... So, on this thresd, people ask for a debate and then ignore all differing POVs...?

Ri-ight.

What, may I ask, is the point of posting, then?

31 Name: HoldenCaulfield : 2010-03-03 18:06 ID:zJjYGoJ8

>>31
What's a debate without a little ignorance?

32 Name: RayRay : 2010-03-03 21:30 ID:ofiIpHzL

>>31

We don't ignore POV's - however, we don't like people making shitty assumptions that have no reason behind them. If you're going to tell people they're shallow, or a part of the problem, at least make a decent post explaining why... WITHOUT being derogatory or insulting.

33 Name: moonphase : 2010-03-04 02:55 ID:pBSecoAl

>>32 an on-topic debate...

34 Name: swiftswallow : 2010-03-04 09:54 ID:S8yuvmcA

I think it would be wrong to critisise the whole industry saying there all starving and underweight e.t.c but their is a problem.
What I think is a bigger problem though is air-brushed pictures. You look through magazines and there's women in their 50's looking 20 and size 12 women editied down to size 4 to look pretier. It means that every women(or man) who goes to that magazine will be airbrushed to look better and bearing in mind they tend to come on to talk about how successful they are. It gives the immpression that succesful people are thin and beautiful which is wrong.
In a way I have to agree with anonymous. If you keep going on about your faults how can people see your good points. There's always someone worse off than you. How can people here go on about crying because there a size 12 and feel fat? When theres people with burns on their faces that can't be healed. I'v we judge ourselves by our looks how can we ever expect people not to judge us the same way.

35 Name: moonphase : 2010-03-04 11:01 ID:pBSecoAl

>>35, yes but no one was going on about faults or saying they were really ugly etc. We were just admitting all out little faults that we exaggerate. Point is, we know its ridiculous, and we were pointing that out about ourselves and trying to discuss in a sensible manner before assumptions were made and the insults began... Anyway...what about the models? Not to repeat myself >>30

36 Name: swiftswallow : 2010-03-04 12:25 ID:S8yuvmcA

I'm sorry if I insulted anyone I had no intention to. I'm not going to say anything more on it.
>>30 (will this even work lol) Theres a lot of health problems beside the body weight issue. Many ballerinas and I would assume models who have to keep on a constant diet develop osteoperosis( maybe wrong spelling) This is when the bones are like cheese with lots of hole and break easily because of the lack of milk on the diet. I suppose a pro point for using models of all diffrent sizes is that you know they won't have physical health problems linked to a poor diet from trying too stay thin.
Also another point for using plus sized models is that if clothing is art. then surely it can be difersived. desigining clothes that look good on bigger people and diffrent shapes to give new things to look at would be a natural turn and challenge for it. Art evolves.Also making it easier for other people to see what clothes would look like on them. Maybe it would be intresting to see how diffrent body shapes hold diffrent fabrics?

37 Name: HoldenCaulfield : 2010-03-04 12:54 ID:mEXrEqyV

>>37
Of course art evokes, and therefore should be more diverse, but once again it comes down to pricing.
People who study fashion, or costume design will tell you that the majority of their budget goes on fabric; if a student is spending 80% of a very low budget on a few low quality fabrics imagine how much an internationally renowned designer is going to be spending.

And, most people will agree that silks, velvets etc. look better on slimmer people, so it glides and skims over a body.

38 Name: RayRay : 2010-03-04 13:43 ID:J5WfJxzk

I don't doubt that some things do look better on the more svelte figure, what I don't like is the health problems that are associated with these catwalk models. Some of them are horribly thin, and for people interested in fashion, it is going to have a negative effect. One would hope it would evoke a more positive effect i.e.

"I don't want to look like her she looks ill"

Unfortunately most of the time we tend to swing the opposite way. I myself have never been attracted to skinny girls, I don't see anything nice about having jutting hip bones, ribs sticking out, or anything else for that matter, when clearly they would look better a few sizes bigger.

39 Name: HoldenCaulfield : 2010-03-04 13:59 ID:mEXrEqyV

>>39

Of course there will be health problems associated with those girls that do keep themselves slim by any means, though it has been said by others that we shouldn't tar those that are naturally that slim with the same brush. Though by equal measure there are health risks with being overweight; even slightly. Is taht a better example to set?

The issue with this is that fashion and modelling are two separate entities, and need to be treated as such. You can't attack the fashion industry for cutting costs. The attack should be on the agencies, the magazines and the advertising industry.

And by equal measure what looks good to you, or me, will not look good to my friends, or yours. Attractiveness is subjective as are most things in life.

40 Name: Francys Pai : 2010-03-04 14:14 ID:6Cx8qwgi

As a model myself I have a very wide window of this is believing that they should be allowed. I personally have a problem moreso with the twigs that have practically nothing on them and the clothes just hang off them, it's not really modeling then is it? It's more of a "I'm just standing here being a clothes horse, yup."

Makes me glad to be an alternative model, we don't get this discriminatory bullshit that the mainstream has.

41 Name: RayRay : 2010-03-04 15:12 ID:J5WfJxzk

I know its the industry as a general that provides us with all these images of walking skeletons. I don't have anything against girls who are naturally skinny, I have a friend who sits at 95lbs, she's tiny, but she eats normal, eats takeaways, she can eat a lot, but her metabolism is good so she doesn't gain weight. She hates it though.

Everythin in life is subjective in life, as you pointed out. I might think I look terrible in something that my friends say look lovely in, and my friends might think I look terrible when I think I look awesome. Not that it happens often, I generally go for styles that suit me but aren't amazing, but aren't drab and boring.

42 Name: swiftswallow : 2010-03-05 10:42 ID:S8yuvmcA

>>38. If it cuts down on costs that makes sense and it was ignorant of me not to think so. I don't know anything about this and I won't pretend I will but from what I've seen from diffrent peoples opinion. I guess I don't see the problem with them being thin so long as the models are healthy. I still think air brushing is the bigger pressure and the magazines that are obbsessed with celebrity's weight.

43 Name: moonphase : 2010-03-05 10:49 ID:pBSecoAl

We have to remember too, that while some girls are naturally slim (which is fine) people argue that the industry have girls that are too thin. In other words, critics argue that some models are not slim, but malnourished. So maybe it wise and cost effective to have slim girls, but what of all these size 4 women on the catwalk? Though cost is a factor, surely morality is too? And, if adult bodies are too big fo expensive materials, then, using that line of argument, why not use children? Coincidently, are there any art funds that help young/new designers, so maybe they don't have to use underweight models? I suppose not, considering fashion is meant to be competative...

44 Name: HoldenCaulfield : 2010-03-05 11:15 ID:qOhX3c+y

>>44

Children.. in adult clothing, covered in make up, and in heels? I can only imagine an uproar of mothers everywhere.

Yes, of course there are artfunds, but you have to be extremely gifted to get these funds. There is probably 1 for every 100 up and coming designers, or fashion students. Fashion, to begin with, is self funded.

45 Name: moonphase : 2010-03-05 11:40 ID:pBSecoAl

>>45, I don't seriously mean children- I was saying that to make a point about 'smaller humans' being cheaper to clothe. Besides, when using that example I was thinking about the clothes being 'art'-not make up and high heels.

46 Name: HoldenCaulfield : 2010-03-05 11:48 ID:qOhX3c+y

>>46

But, by saying "smaller humans" doesn't that just mean slimmer, shorter people?

Make up, and shoes come under fashion, they are as important in the industry as art.

Instead of viewing this as a customer, view this as a student, or a member of the industry. Can you imagine how hard people who moan and groan about models and their weight makes their lives?

47 Name: moonphase : 2010-03-05 11:58 ID:pBSecoAl

>>47, I do mean that also, but because children was a more ridiculous notion, I used that instead. LIke I said, it was just making a point, its not something I'd realistically expect or want.
I'm sure constant criticism is hard for people in the industry, but equally, there is cause for concern. Like I've said, some models look very malnourished, and its high pressure to remain thin. So like I asked earlier, is it healthy for the models that a low weight is expected? Or does it put too much pressure on them also?

48 Name: RayRay : 2010-03-05 12:01 ID:J5WfJxzk

It has to be hard on the people, but as pointed out before, there is a difference between thin, and malnourished.

Most models nowadays have to be slim, fair enough, if they want to look like that, then their thing. But what I have a problem with is the girls who think its hot when they see malnourished catwalk girls.

It's probably more unhealthy to think these girls look good. At the same time though, I'm not encouraging obesity or being overweight, neither are good, for different reasons. Both can kill you though.

I'm at the right median for my height, so are most of the people I know to be fair... but seeing extremely overweight people worries me just as much as seeing extremely underweight people.

49 Name: moonphase : 2010-03-05 12:14 ID:pBSecoAl

Yeah, agreed. I don't agree with underweight models but I donot advocate obesity and neither do I feel that we need to pander to a (overly?) self concious group of people. However, I think underweight models are a legitimate concern. If there isn't enough money, maybe we could discuss ways of cutting budgets in other ways? Francys Pai and HoldenCaulfield, you guys know the industry better than us, is there anything else that could be cut back on, other than hiring slimmer models?

50 Name: HoldenCaulfield : 2010-03-05 12:31 ID:qOhX3c+y

>>50

Of course there are things the industry could cut back on. Primark, for example, uses low quality materials, sweatshops and copies designs from larger companies. These all save money. They do not advertise or use models. Yet, people still complain, they complain that the shoes are worn after a few weeks, or that the clothes are only cheap because third world children are being exploited.

The fashion industry is one that is always going to be a controversial one. People want good quality clothing, for next to nothing, that is made ethically, look good on all body shapes and shown on healthy weight models. It's just not possible. You can't have your cake and eat it too (how apt is that turn of phrase haha)if you want healthy models, you'll have to sell out more. You want good fabrics, you'll have skinny models. If you want cheap clothes, you'll have to exploit a group of people.

The way around this is more education in schools, a better environment to discuss weight issues, and how self concious you way feel from a younger age. If you teach your children that hip bones and rib cages gutting out of your skin is ugly it will becoming ingrained in them.

51 Name: moonphase : 2010-03-05 12:50 ID:pBSecoAl

But I imagine some, if not many parents do teach their children about what a healthy body is, and that it should be treasured. However, if all the media say that thin is pretty, surely that would have an affect on their views? Unfortunately I'm coming dangerously close to the ever shaky argument of the media make people have self esteem here, but if you ae young and all the people you admire are very slim, surely it would be normal to wish to be thin? Especially as, when children reach their early teens they become more cynical towards what their parents teach them about themselves ('I'm not pretty, you're my mum you have to say that!' < that kind of thing.)

Maybe society as a whole need to try and re-evaluate beauty, but, again, does not high fashion stand at the fore? They influence all other fashion (high street clothing, celebs etc.)

I do believe that their needs to be more education on body weight and that while some people can be size 6 and healthy, others can be a size 16 and healthy.

52 Name: HoldenCaulfield : 2010-03-05 13:13 ID:qOhX3c+y

>>52

I, for one, had parents that never taught me that being too slim was dangerous if it wasn't natural. Though the responsibility shouldn't lie soley on the parents, shouldn't the education system and the government be involved? The amount of adverts you see for Weight Watchers, LighterLife, Adios etc etc, the regulatory bodies run by the government must approve these, children will see them and associate slimmer with happier. Fashion is not solely to blame.

True high fashion barely influences high street clothing. The items I buy from designers bear no resemblance to those that I buy from the highstreet.

53 Name: moonphase : 2010-03-06 01:51 ID:pBSecoAl

Well, I think the only thing the government can realistically do is effect the education system. I do not think they would have the ability (or right) to censure weight loss adverts because these adverts, whilst advocating slimness, are aimed for overwight people (which is, obviously as harmful as being underweight.) Some of these are offering healthy ways of losing weight.
However, the modelling world uses women and men that are underweight. In the media these are then portrayed as an ideal. The weightloss adverts never show someone underweight as an ideal. Therefore, no one has complained about them. If the government did ban these adverts, it would help create the 'nanny state' even further. However, some models on the catwalk are dangerously thin, so if a government said that size four was not allowed on the runway anymore, I would think that more responsible. That being said, I do not believe the government should do that (they should focus on runnung the country) and the the fashion industry need to work out how to have healthy (albeit slim, but still healthy) models because it is their responsibility. Any other industry or business has to learn how to look after their employee's and as weight is an issue in modelling, it should be analysed instead of brushed off as too expensive. If true high fashion has no affect on high street designers, well fine, but that still does not mean that high fashion is not a powerful, ruling force in the fashion industry. There is no reason for them to not try to change their ways.

54 Name: moonphase : 2010-03-08 09:23 ID:pBSecoAl

You have mentioned before that the more affluent designers can afford to use bigger models; which is commendable of course.

What I meant by 'change' is maybe trying to figure out a way to aid new, poorer students, who you said need to use slim models due to the sheer cost of fabrics. That way, students and new comers would hopefully have more support and/or resources and their models might be under less pressure to remain very slim.

In the first post I used a heavier, famous model as an example and asked what people thought, of course I'm aware of bigger models. However, this is meant to be a debate, I am simply offering an argument to your's, and as a result, you have been able to represent the modeling world, proving to people that it is more complex than famous designers thinking thin girls are prettier.

That being said, I think my above argument for fashion changing is still valid, for reasons outlined. While designers who can afford and use bigger models should be praised, we still need to look at the more negative groups as it would be just as biased to only look at Westward etc as it would be to focus on Chanel etc.

55 Name: HoldenCaulfield : 2010-03-08 10:01 ID:LqRILa4U

Aid for students will come for bursarys, grants and the government, but with the budget deficit, I'd rather see skinny models and have the money directed to the more important areas.

Of course designers who use bigger models should be praised, and it is equally as bad to turn your nose up at Chanel because they don't, and I do agree with a lot of your points through out our debate.

But you have to take into consideration that the bigger models, lets say size 10 - 12 for arguments sake, will always be influenced by those that came before them. Like Bacon inspired Hirst and Homer inspired Joyce, Twiggy will inspire Moss.

Fashion is a vicious circle, especially in trends and influence.
More funding wont necessarily stop the use of slim models, it would be more useful to educate young girls in schools.

56 Name: moonphase : 2010-03-08 10:22 ID:pBSecoAl

Hmmm, that's a good point actually. When I read your first sentence I thought 'yes but it shouldn't be the responsibility of the government.' HOWEVER, like you say, fashion goes in a circle and even with monetry aid, that would not necessarily mean bigger girls, sure it would give the oppurtunity to have bigger women, but it is not a certainty. It's a shame in a way that we have to wait for bigger girls to get more popular, but my worry is, then 'curvy' will be in, and naturally slim girls will feel a bit put out! Like you say, vicious circle.

I must say, I also agree that sensible education about food and the body is a good, long term idea. Where some girls are meant to be very slim, others a naturally biggr, all depending on things such as height. That would be better in making people understand how to eat and what sort of weight they should be aiming for or maintaining.

It might sound silly, but I think a good number of us need to learn how to dress and where clothes that suit us are. You get slim girls drowning in massive tops, and big girls falling out of their clothes. So I suppose it is all about education!

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