You know, I look through the list of threads and there are a few which ask questions like what's your nationality, what are your problems or what do you think of X? Originally for this thread I was going to ask Who Believes in God? But then I thought: that's going to exclude a whole lot of people, which I don't want because I'd like everyone to have a word in this, so, whether Christian or not, here we can talk about God :)
I know, He's a big deal (pun intended :p) to talk about and loads of people might get very hot-headed about this kind of subject, as it is very deep to say the least. But I'm hoping there'll be polite and reasonable comments here anyway, please.
I'm not intending for there to be any rants here (you know, like those extremists - no offense to them - who like to shout at people about God), because it's not pleasant for everybody else and it's not a great way to have a conversation. And that's what I really want: a conversation, that's easy-going, thought-provoking and inclusive. Everyone's welcome to say their thoughts, and, well, even start an argument (provided that it doesn't involve insults and swearing!). shrugs How can there not be arguments? (Provided again that they're respectful to others) And it's interesting to hear people's opinions.
I'm a Christian myself (no duh) and I'm just curious about the amount of other Christians on ff.net too, as I rarely find any outside of church. But it feels really great when I discover one on ff.net and it comes as a surprise to me heh.
So...what are your thoughts?
>>347 I think every religon has moments like that.
@eeyop1428
I really don't know much about what's going on around. But the Saddam regime was a pretty twisted one and people weren't exactly free, however in some ways the Iraq invasion has caused many more problems. ~sigh~
The change in constitution is at least a step in the right direction. Belief is you own choice, no one should involve themselves as its between you and God (or whoever you believe in). Its sad that in so many countries people have no choice and are forced to be of a particular faith which is completely against Human Rights, besides they're never really going to be of that faith as they're just pretending to fit in/ not get in trouble etc.
In some ways I understand why people say that religion and politics shouldn't mix as it causes problems such as these. Look at some of the so-called Muslim countries (I say Muslim as I don't believe they are Islamic as they abuse the religion) which implement laws many of which serve to subject women- which has nothing to do with Islam, this is simply a cultural thing- seriously in one country women can't drive, they have to have male drivers... ~sigh~
Not allowing women to drive, right. Then they could make chauffeurs out of the men, thus it's the law's fault if they don't like it heh. Though I find that more sexist than a cultural thing. It's like saying women don't have the ability to operate a vehicle, when they actually do. Ridiculous.
Saddam not only used fear to keep Muslims in place in terms of religion, but he also made the population think that the Americans refused to send them much needed medicine for their children, and so they hated the Americans. In truth, they did send the medicine but Saddam took them, sold them for money to spend on himself, and told the Muslims otherwise. Pretty sick of him, how he could let those poor children die while he went after his own glory, using their deaths as a promotion of himself. But thankfully he had been found out, and the truth revealed.
Sometimes it's not really about religion specifically, but about politics and power-play between governing bodies in such conflicts. They're just using religion as a tool for winning. That's one of the reasons why many people hate religion, thinking it only starts wars and negative things happening, when it's only the people who use it make it look bad. Like Fred Phelps (seriously, this man's so bad, watch him on Youtube, you'll get what I mean. His words disgrace God).
@347- DO YOUR RESEARCH.
From Wikipedia, no less:
While mainstream scholars uphold capital punishment for apostates for Islam,[13] a number of scholars argue the punishment is reserved for those who have committed treason against the Muslim community, or who rejected Islam during the time of the prophet Muhammad.
In a book on the issue, Abdullah Saeed and Hassan Saeed argue that Islamic law that calls for death for apostasy is in conflict with a variety of fundamentals of Islam. They contend that the early development of the law of apostasy was essentially a religio-political tool, and that there was a large diversity of opinion among early Muslims on the punishment.[17]
Medieval Muslim scholars (e.g. Sufyan al-Thawri) and modern (e.g. Hasan at-Turabi), also have argued that the hadith used to justify execution of apostates (see below) should be taken to apply only to political betrayal of the Muslim community, rather than to apostasy in general.[18] These scholars argue for the freedom to convert to and from Islam without legal penalty.
Other prominent Islamic scholars like the Grand Mufti of Cairo Sheikh Ali Gomaa have stated that while God will punish apostates in the afterlife they should not be executed by human beings.[19]
Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, an Islamic scholar, writes that punishment for apostasy was part of Divine punishment for only those who denied the truth even after clarification in its ultimate form by Muhammad (see Itmaam-i-hujjat), hence, he considers it a time-bound command and no longer punishable.[20]
[edit] Qur'an
S. A. Rahman, a former Chief Justice of Pakistan, argues that there is no indication of the death penalty for apostasy in the Qur'an.[21]
W. Heffening states that in Qur'an "the apostate is threatened with punishment in the next world only," adding that Shafi'is interpret verse [Qur'an 2:217] as adducing the main evidence for the death penalty in the Qur'an.[22] Wael Hallaq holds that "nothing in the law governing apostate and apostasy derives from the letter of the holy text."[3] The late dissenting Shia jurist Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, a significant Shi'a religious authority, stated that the Quranic verses do not prescribe an earthly penalty for apostasy.[7]
Popular Islamist author Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi argued that verses [Qur'an 9:11] of the Qur'an sanction death for apostasy. However, some scholars reject Mawdudi's interpretation. S. A. Rahman concluded "that not only is there no punishment for apostasy provided in the Book but that the Word of God clearly envisages the natural death of the apostate. He will be punished only in the Hereafter…"[23] He continues and says that there is no reference to the death penalty in any of the 20 instances of apostasy mentioned in the Qur'an.
In his book on Punishment of Apostasy in Islam, Rahman declares the verse [Qur'an 2:256] to be "one of the most important verses of the Qur'an, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind…". He goes on to criticize the attempts by Muslim scholars over the ages to narrow its broad humanistic meaning and impose limits on its scope in their attempts to reconcile it with their interpretations of Muhammad's Sunna.
[edit] Hadith
Writing in the Encyclopedia of Islam, Heffening holds that contrary to the Qur'an, "in traditions [i.e. hadith], there is little echo of these punishments in the next world… and instead, we have in many traditions a new element, the death penalty."[15] Wael Hallaq states the death penalty was a new element added later and "reflects a later reality and does not stand in accord with the deeds of the Prophet."[3]
Some hadith report that in some cases Muhammad allowed apostates to live:
Jabir ibn `Abdullah narrated that a Bedouin pledged allegiance to the Apostle of Allah for Islam (i.e. accepted Islam) and then the Bedouin got fever whereupon he said to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) "cancel my pledge." But the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refused. He (the Bedouin) came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my pledge." But the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refused. Then he (the Bedouin) left (Medina). Allah's Apostle said, "Madinah is like a pair of bellows (furnace): it expels its impurities and brightens and clear its good."[2]
Another hadith reports that Ubayd-Allah ibn Jahsh converted to Christianity and Muhammad also left him unharmed.[24][25]
Ayatollah Montazeri holds that it is probable that the punishment was prescribed by Muhammad during early Islam to combat political conspiracies against Islam and Muslims, and is not intended for those who simply change their belief or express a change in belief Montazeri defines different types of apostasy. He argues that capital punishment whould be reserved for those who desert Islam out of malice and enmity towards the Muslim community, and those who convert to another religion after investigation and research.[7]
[edit] Historic
According to Muslim Islamic scholar Cyril Glassé, death for apostasy was "not in practice enforced" in later times in the Muslim world, and was "completely abolished" by "a decree of the Ottoman government in 1260AH/1844AD."[26]
"You can't believe some things that I say because I'm a stranger, but then why would a stranger go so far to simply lie to equally unknown users on the 'net? Why bother to an extent?"
Because you want me to believe you when you have no evidence to back up anything you say and so haven't answered the majority of my questions/challenges.
"And facts can be manipulated by others, information can be overloaded, begging the question of what is genuine or fake."
Some things are just fact. Stop relying so heavily on pseudo-philosophy because it doesn't mean anything and isn't a real answer.
"I can't tell you why he doesn't intervene in horrible crimes like child abuse... but I do believe that he will take care of those children who had suffered"- Still doesn't answer why he saved you from being pen-less and allowed them to suffer in the 'short term.'
"You argue with the knowledge and experience of this world, which can be limited to some extent."Sure it's limited, but even more limited is arguing that something is true because you have a 'feeling.'
"It doesn't have the answer to everything" No but that doesn't mean I have to find answers in something that isn't there.
Confessions of a Former Christian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq5TWTTPHF8&feature=related
Since the thread is tl;dr I'm just returning to the original question.
I'm not religious, and I see the characters from the Bible(which incidentally is the only Holy Book I have access to) as nothing but characters. Having said this, I don't really like God all that much.
But I won't say anything else, as I'm not here to make enemies. I don't want to offend anyone here and since my opinion certainly would I'll just leave it at this.
@354- Try to please everyone and you'll please no-one. I happen to like freedom of speech.
@Anonymous - I know, but I'm always kind of blunt when giving my opinion on religion.
I think organized religion is a load of rubbish. I hate the repressive effects it has on people and the severe hampering of knowledge.
Aside from that I have several more petty views on the subject that pretty much revolve around me being on Lucifer's side because I think God is a hypocrite.
>>352 The evidence I know of is unseen, of the holy spirit, which comes through believers and circumstances. You can know this through faith, which is one of the main running aspects of Christianity. Belief is most genuine if you have faith in something, believing it is true and real even though you cannot see it. Since God is not of this world, how can we see him with human eyes? He is too great for that kind of perception. I haven’t quite answered some of your questions because I have already answered in one way with previous posts, and as you like to see physical evidence of my answers which are mainly spiritual in nature, based on faith and concerning experiences and different outlook on life, it’s predictable that you would dismiss them as weak and proving nothing. Also, my previous answers will remain the same so I won’t repeat them uselessly to you when you continue to side-step them. The answers are from the truth of the bible and testimonies from people; they still stand.
Yes, some things are fact, I’m not denying them. But other things are not, and can continue to be manipulated, reshaped, or contorted by people, such as the media. Some information may be withheld from the public, or altered for others’ benefits; or to blind the public from the whole truth. If governing authorities can use religion as a controlling tool, they can also use other subjects and bodies of facts to do the same. Why not? Anyone can lie; that’s fact.
You keep pointing your finger at the bible for its ‘faults’, but all in all the issues in it are in the past; yes, they happened, but it’s plainly history now. I think the main mark that’s being missed is the gift of salvation that is now free for everyone to take, and all the good things God has given and continues to give to his people. Your cynicism prevents you from hearing God because you always push him away, as do many others. Just by thinking or talking negatively about the faith pushes him away. He wants to be near you, but it’s your actions which stop him from doing so. When I said that ‘you would not begin to believe because you won’t open your mind or heart to God’, that’s what I meant. And since God never forces anyone to do things, he can’t be blamed for the sins of today. It’s all our doing in this world, our selfishness which causes conflict or poison. I’m not perfect myself. But God will always forgive, and will always love us, no matter how wretched we are. He can makes clean again, if we ask for his forgiveness, admitting what we’ve done wrong, and accepting Jesus as our saviour. It’s simply all down to our choice. It’s not a forced bargain; it’s a free present of life. We either take it, or leave it.
God has promised that all thing work together for good to those who love and serve him faithfully. In Romans 8:28 it says ‘And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose’. He has promised to supply every need we have. In Phillipians 4:19: ‘But my God shall supply all your needs according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.’ And other such promises in the bible tells us that God takes care of his believers, for their every need and provision in life, even for little things, for example giving one a pen. He cares so much that he wants the best for us while wanting to make us happy, not by giving what we want, but need, including discipline. But he can’t work for those who don’t follow him, for they refuse to be in his family, and thus in his protection and care. Although bad things happen to people and innocent children, God uses tragedies and circumstances to demonstrate his miracles, and make something good come out of them, to lead victims of abuse to him, along with the witnesses. Even the abusers or criminals who feel guilty can be led to God. To affect greatly the lives of people, God may act in a miraculous way at a low or serious point of their lives. For when there is nowhere else to turn to, there is only God, and that’s when he can show himself to you when you choose to turn to him for help. God works inmysterious ways as well, and he does things that we may not expect but we can always rely on him having good timing and knowing what to do. We must trust in him, even when things seem hopeless, and remember that nothing is impossible for God.
And sometimes when there are some really hateful things, they are used to brighten things which are good.
God may take action, but he has given all of us the power to do so as well. We can’t expect him to fix our problems all of the time; he has given us tools to help ourselves and others: common sense, kindness, self-control, courage, the bond between men and women, our bodies to move and act, and more. So we can put a stop to abuse and suffering with God, while God works through us too. He strengthens us when we’re weak, and empowers us with his strength.
I am only a messenger of God, so his teachings aren’t mine, nor are the words of the bible. It says that if people do not support or respect Jesus, then they will not do so for his followers. But it also says, if God is for us, who can be against us? I spread this message to do his will and invite others to accept him into their lives. Again, it’s all down to your choice after hearing it. That’s what I have to say about that.
>>353 This video is weak. By listening and re-reading his words I can see a rather weak and frivolous dismissal of Christianity; one person’s rant against a religion. He says that he had an emotional attachment tohis belief, which is not the right attitude to it in the first place. If he was a true believer, he would have known that the most important thing is God, not his emotions toward him, and he would have known God’s character, that he is fair, good, loving, kind, gentle etc, plus his teaching on how to live and behave (the fruits of the spirit). He let his emotions get in the way (being irritated), and lead him away. He should have exercised patience and remembered that God has control over things. Also, the heart of Christianity is not laws or rituals; it’s relationships - a relationship with God, with other believers, and non-believers. It’s about unity and peace between people, to be together for the same things in life, which is good and joyful for all. I don’t think ‘FightingAtheist’ understood that when he turned away from Christianity. Otherwise he wouldn’t have done so, at least not so easily.
By basing his beliefs now on logic and reasoning of the human mind, he is limiting and cutting himself off from the spirit of God and trapping himself in the thinking of this world. Thus he can’t hear God anymore.
He belittles the creation of humans in the bible by saying that ‘people were created from dirt’. This seems to me like an offhanded attempt to make the bible seem weak or laughable, which can be childish in a way or naive. Dirt is dirt, and humans are obviously blood and flesh. The word ‘dirt’ or ‘clay’ could be a metaphorical use showing how humans are made /i/like/i/ clay (i.e. God is the potter, man is the clay); we are easily made and can be easily unmade - another meaning is we are nothing like dirt and have no power against God, to humble us. But anyway, he is relying on science instead of God now, which again prevents the holy spirit from working in and around him. Not saying that science doesn’t have a place in our lives or is useless, but that he looks to science as the most prominent source for answers instead of God who is all-knowing and all-powerful, which is wrong. He is idolising science in that way.
He was right that God is loving and kind, but he forgets that God is also a judge as well as a father and a friend. So he makes God seem contradictory, but God has told that he is the judge. As a parent, he punishes because he loves, so that we may live the right way and learn from our mistakes. I see how heavy such punishments are in the Old Testament, but it shows God shouldn’t be angered or tested, like children do to their parents frustratingly. I suppose the punished ones in the Old T. did so in a more serious manner for God to act in such a way. But the new Covenant, the new promise, with God was made in the New T. so God will not have to punish us because Jesus had sacrificed himself in our favour, washing our sins away, so that we can come to God in peace and forgiveness.
Again, he belittles Christ and his birth and death, downsizing his importance and holiness. He does this by saying simply ‘the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then flew up into the sky’, and streaming all this into one simple sentence. Jesus didn’t ‘get killed’, he was crucified, sacrificed, willingly; he wasn’t murdered. He didn’t ‘fly into the sky’, he was taken up into heaven by the Holy Spirit where he would sit at the right side of God until the day he comes back to earth. And even though he is all the way up there, he is still looking out for us and vouching for our well being. Childish/naive dismissal once again, and ignorant of how important and meaningful Christ’s death is, to the world.
He says ‘I realize now that the difference between these beliefs is minuscule’. That is wrong. The differences between Christianity and other religions is immense. What other religion has a god who loves his creations as his children; or tells them to love each other and forgive each other; or who loved us enough to come down to earth as a man, experienced being a human among us, taught us in close quarters, and sacrificed himself for our sake; or who is so intimate with us, we can call him Father and Friend? God is set apart from other gods because of what he teaches, and what he does, and who he is.
He believes that God created Hell, but that is wrong. He never created it in the first place; only when the angel Lucifer went against him was Hell formed, as a punishment for warring against God. If anyone is to blame for the creation of Hell, it is Satan. But God doesn’t want anyone to go to Hell; he wants us to go to heaven to be with him again. And as a judge, as well as a father, he has no choice but to deliver punishment to those who are against him. We have been given a chance for life, but it is our choice whether or not we accept it. Rather than fearing Hell, we should fear God, for he is God and all else is under him. This fear should be in respect, humbleness and acknowledgement, not cowardice or all-consuming fear.
‘FightingAtheist’ says ‘However an emotional person rolling around on the floor screaming gibberish was all the evidence I needed’. Once again he diminishes what is more holy than how he puts it. An ‘emotional person’ is someone who is experiencing the power of the holy spirit, and the ‘gibberish’ would be the language of tongues, a gift from God. My brother can speak in tongues sometimes, and he isn’t being ‘emotional’ or ‘crazy’. I don’t understand him, but I know it is given to him by God.
On the statement about prayer, I guess that ‘FA’ may not have known the right way to pray as outlined in the bible. Some people may pray ‘shopping list prayers’ which only asks God to do things, or to solve things, for them, but do not thank him for his gifts or confess sins and ask for forgiveness. That is not right, and it’s not building up a relationship with God. Praying has been described as a hotline on which you can use any time, any where to talk to God about any thing. It may not only be used as a call for help, but also to just talk and seek solace from God, as prayer is a connection to heaven. As the bible tells us, the right way to pray is to first praise God for what he has done in your life, then to confess any sin you have and ask for forgiveness and his guidance to avoid sin, and then you can ask him requests, for others and yourself, which are good, not selfish requests.
There is a thing called the power of prayer, when several or more people pray earnestly enough for something, and God may act. If you give up praying, God may not be able to answer you, or help you, for prayer links you to him.
‘FA’ says he has read the entire bible. If he had then I would think he had seen the truths taught in it, and studied them thoroughly; he would know that what he is saying is against God and is wrong. And he would know that by saying all of these things it shows he has little faith and many doubts, which separates him from God. The ‘atrocities committed in the name of Christianity’ were not by God but by people, and the devil who led them. God did not command them to murder, lie, or abuse each other. The fault is not God’s. And the things which are prosecuting, oppressing, and stunting us today, are not by God either. I’m sorry that if any Christian behaves in those ways, but know that that is not what God supports, and that that behaviour is by the person. God is not oppressive; he gives us choices. He offers, but does not force us.
Posting the link to this video will not deter me from believing in and following God, because I have a relationship and hope with him. I and the many Christians who have seen and know his truth, and continue to do so, will not stop following him because he is the one true God. Thousands of people come to Christ every day; even today millions of people, not all of them Christians or even religious, continue to recognise him as the most perfect and challenging human being ever to have lived. Fashions, fads and crazes come and go, but 2000 years after the death of Jesus not millions, but billions of people follow him. The video is by one person who has lost his faith for God, and I pray that God will lead him back to him.
I’ll be honest here: I was somewhat discouraged by the posts denying Christianity in this thread. I had said what I said in responding posts, as kindly and truthfully as I could, but there always seemed to be a counter to what I’ve said. My thoughts were that it’s because the posters had not opened themselves to God, had not experienced the spirit of God, so they rely on the answers of this world, which are many; but are not the truth of God. My answers cannot be changed, because they are as they are; I can only repeat them. I felt watched over by God but I still felt down by not getting the message through to others. I was by myself. But one thing I sometimes forget is that I’m not by myself, I’m not in this alone. I may be the only Christian speaking longer in the thread, but there are many others who are doing the same thing around the world, face to face with other people.
A few weeks ago I went to an open concert event called The Big Church Day Out with friends. It was overcast and drizzling with depressing rain, which didn’t help my grey mood. But when the concert began, I saw so many Christians all in one place; a giant crowd huddled together, laughing, smiling and cheering in the cold. Seeing so many Christians lifted my heart; I was not alone, and we all sang even though it was wet and cold - it was a celebration and praise for God. I was happy to see fellow believers, so happy that tears welled up in my eyes. The presence of God was in that place and his spirit was over everyone. I remember statements in previous posts in this thread expressing the negative nature of Christianity, but being among that concert was totally different. Everyone was so happy, joyful and excited. If any of you were there too, how could you claim these people are boring, or silly, or in it for themselves? The concert was all about God, and his works, quite simply. And we sang straight into the night, singing in the darkness; it was magical, but that cannot begin to describe the whole of it. I had a feeling that the crowd of people, their unifed voices breaking the air, and hands up high, was a taste of what it would be like worshiping God in heaven.
There were 2 or more American bands playing, and these are the words from the lead singer of the band Toby Mac, which are inspiring and encouraging: ‘Listen, every one of us are gonna lose our way at one time or another in this world. We’re all gonna lose our way; I lose my way all the time, man. I feel like I’m pursuing this faith in God...sometimes I’m sprinting toward that goal...and other times I find myself on the side of the road, choking and gasping for breath. Every one of us are gonna lose our way, but just ‘cause we lose our way, we make some mistakes, we stumble, we fall, it does not mean that we have to lose our soul.’
This belief in God is strong under the surface, and it will continue to gain followers and save. I invite you to listen to songs by well-known Christian bands, a few of which who played on TBCDOut are Toby Mac, Switchfoot, Israel Houghton and Hillsongs United.
Again, the message of Christ, God, is here. I started this thread as a link to it, so that it may reach out to more people. I can’t force you to accept it (though I don’t like forcing people to do anything anyway), but you have your choice. That’s all.
In contrast with the video in >>353 here's one featuring a great man, who is most blessed by God, and is a living example of his love, care and provision:
Nick Vujicic: Life Without Limbs - CBN.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl58qufXfYk
@eeyop1428 - God is kind, loving and gentle? How do these attributes relate to him? Before I continue, let me stress that I do NOT mean to offend you or anyone else with my words.
From what I've read in the Bible, and admittedly that is very little, I do not see God as kind and loving. Allow me to give some things I noted, complete with the Bible verses they refer to.
Genesis
3:1-24 The creation of Man, and the sin. The serpent tricks Eve into eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. However, it should be noted that God, who is supposedly always just and righteous, had lied about the consequences of eating from the tree. When Adam and Eve realize they’re naked, they cover themselves up. God punishes the serpent, but also makes the lives of Adam and Eve a lot harder. Then, realizing that they now have the knowledge of Good and Evil like he has, he sets up a Cherubim guard to protect the Tree of Life. From this I deduce that he fears them.
4:1-26 God is everything but loving to Kain. Of course Kain gets angry when God doesn’t like his offering, who wouldn’t? Then, after Kain slays Abel, God curses him but also makes him invulnerable. What kind of punishment is that?
6:5-9:7 The Flood. After the waters have dried, God smells the scent of what is basically Noah’s barbecue, and decides never to purge the earth again. What kind of sense is that? Also, he says that he’ll demand the blood of all living things, and that humans who spill blood will have theirs spilt by other humans, because they were made in God’s image. Conclusion: God is violent?
9:8-17 The sign of the Covenant is a rainbow? Does God need a reminder if he is omnipotent and omniscient? No, he doesn’t. Then what’s the point?
9:18-29 Cham warns his brothers and they help their father. Why then does Noah curse Cham’s son? Where’s the logic in that? If someone helps you, you thank them, you don’t curse them.
11:1-9 The Tower of Babel. There is unity among Man, and God says, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is what they begin to do: and now nothing will be withholden from them, which they purpose to do. Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”
This raises one question: WHY?! Why would you divide what is united? What is the point?! Isn’t unity supposed to be our biggest strength? Why does God, who supposedly loves us, divide us? I can only surmise that this is because he fears us.
12:1-9 Why Abraham? What is his significance? God basically grants him unlimited powers as he’ll bless whomever Abraham blesses and curse whomever he curses.
12:10-20 Abraham knows he’s got God on his side and is thus basically invulnerable. Still he makes Sarah say she’s his sister rather than his wife, which causes the Pharaoh to take her as his wife, whereupon God plagues him horribly. The Pharaoh’s question to Abraham, ‘Why didn’t you tell me’ is very legit. Again, why? Why did Abraham decide to act the way he did?
13:1-18 Why is God so focused on giving Abraham his own country? What’s the point of that?
14:1-17 Lot is the son of Abraham’s brother, but a few lines later he’s referred to as his brother.
15:1-21 God promises Abraham the land, but then goes back on his own word by saying his descendants will have it, only to be repressed by another people led by God. Nice promise that is.
16:1-16 Sarah tells Hagar to have Abraham’s child, but when she gets pregnant she suddenly turns on her and humiliates her. What is that supposed to mean? Then an angel tells Hagar that Ishmael would be hated by all and that he would hate all. Nice prospect.
17:1-27 Circumcision. Do I even have to go there? Why would God order something so ludicrous? If he thinks it has to go, why create humans with it?
18:1-15 Sarah laughs, is embarrassed by this, says she hasn’t laughed and God says, Yes you did. Childish much?
19:1-29 Lot’s wife looks back and turns into a pillar of salt. Abraham looks at the cities and nothing happens. What the fuck?
19:30-38 Lot’s daughters want to get pregnant so they basically rape their father. But Lot doesn’t notice it. How can you not notice getting something like that? How is it even possible without some help?
20:1-18 Again Abraham screws a king over with the ‘my wife is my sister’ thing. And God just plays along. Why?
21:8-21 Hagar and Ishmael are now useless to Abraham, so they’re ditched. Way to go.
22:1-19 Abraham doesn’t even question God’s order to sacrifice his only son. Great father. Isaac doesn’t protest when he is bound on the altar. Weird kid.
I apologize for the sarcasm, but this comes from a file I have called Bible Commentaries, my own sidenotes to the verses. I already cleaned up the swears from it for public viewing.
@ eeyop, you are the only (at least) out-spoken Christian on here, and you have my sympathies in that regard. However, you created this thread; surely you were expecting dissent?The reason you have so many responses criticisng your stance is because your arguments are weak.
Do you have any idea how disgusting that sounds? Well, no, of course you don't. I'm sure that sounded lovely when you thought of it and typed it out. That you think that justifies him saving you from being pen-less but not saving a child...it boggles the mind that you and your God are so cruel.
5. Hell: "He believes that God created Hell, but that is wrong. He never created it in the first place; only when the angel Lucifer went against him was Hell formed, as a punishment for warring against God." <<< So who made hell? Reading that twice, it sounds like you are saying 'God DID make hell, but only to put Satan and everyone he doesn't like in there.' In which case, the guy in the video is correct, God did make hell and does send people there.
6. Forgiveness: You say God always forgives us? Well, evidently not, as when you go to Hell, you stay there, suffering for all eternity.
7. "God always loves": Obviously not; see 'Hell.' Doesn't seem too loving to me.
"Your cynicism prevents you from hearing God because you always push him away, as do many others. Just by thinking or talking negatively about the faith pushes him away." <<<
It's called, Eeyop, having a critical mind. It means I don't just pick upand read, say the Koran or the Bible or myths of ancient Greek Gods and go "OMG!!This explains how everything happened, it must be true!!" Rather I think about it, look at facts, evidence and then decide. The Bible, on which the Christian faith is based, is a shaky text that I am still investigating. I am open minded enough to look at things other than preacher, his followers and a single book. I look at the for and aginst arguments. I look at alternative arguments.
This is why I am not superstitous, why I do not fall for money scams, why I do not prejudice aginst different races, genders or sexualities. And I didn't need a book to tell me to be this way.
>>363, God didn't lie. He said they would know good and evil, i.e. that they would become wiser and self sufficient. And they did, I think the 'covering themselves with leaves' was a sign that they had gained 'morality.'
What does bother me is...if Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil, then how could they be punished for doing an 'evil'? They didn't know the difference.
Other than that, I agree whole heartedly. In fact, there are more to add.
You mention Abrahams son, at least he got saved, Jepthah's daughter (who isn't even named) is cooked. In Judges 11:31 J offers to God a burnt offering of the first person to leave his house if God lets him win some battle. The first person is his daughter. She goes to weep for her virginity and then, in verse 39, she returns and he 'carries out his vow to God.' Nice.
2Kings 23-25
Elisha calls down evil (in the form of two hugnry 'she-bears') to kill forty-two small boys. Their sin? They called him 'baldhead.'
1 Kings 13:18, a prophet is tricked into dispbeying God. So in verse 24, he is killed by a Lion. So much for forgiveness huh...?
Daniel 6:24, after not being eaten by the Lions, the men who had conspired to have Daniel killed (through the egotism of the King) are thrown into the pit...along with their wives and children.
The battle of Jericho, were women, men even friggen animals were slaughtered!
Lets not forget all the mass murder of the people of Canaan, (oh, but they were bad, so it's ok..but, oh yeah, the young girl were kept alive. Wonder why?)
Genesis 19:8- Lots daughters are offered up to a crowd of sexual deviants. In Judges 19:10 the same thing happens to a Levite priest. So he does the honourable thing and throws out his concubine. She is raped all night. She dies on his doorstep and is found in the morning (he was busy sleeping all night.) In his agonised sorrow, he chops her up into 12 peices.
One last thing, >>357 you say "You keep pointing your finger at the bible for its ‘faults’, but all in all the issues in it are in the past; yes, they happened, but it’s plainly history now."
Not at all. To this day, the Bible is still being analysed, and certain things it got right (i.e. historically) are coming out, and things it got wrong (namely in translation) are coming out, which bring it more into disrepute.
Also, we still have to deal with idiot funadamentalists like the Westbo church, crazy cults like the one run by "Michael" Travesser and the teaching of things like 'the world is six thousand years old/ people walked around with dinosaurs like the Flintstone' etc. As long as these exist te Bible and Christianity will continue to be analysed and criticised.
I would like to apologise for my numerous grammar and spelling mistakes. I was typing very quickly...
I'd have to agree with what eeyop said. While I didn't read all the posts here, I've read the last few.
I have to agree with what he said in 361 about encountering the spirit in worshiping. It is a joy filled experience that is impossible to describe. When the spirit of God descends on a place like that, it reminds me once again of God's awesomeness.
One of the things moonphase seems to forget is that while God is perfect in love, he is also perfect in justice. That is the reason God must punish those who disobay. A good judge wouldn't let a criminal get away, the same way God deals with those who disobey him. According to God's perfect justice, we all deserve hell. From mother Teresa to Osama bin Ladon, we have all fallen short of God's standards. Also, He gave us free will to choose weather to obey him or not. He wants our love, but in order to truly love Him, we must make a choice.
Also, in regards to the horrible things in the world, this is because the world is not perfect how God originally planned it. However, God will make all things right. You seem short cited, thinking that just because something is bad now, that it doesn't have a greater purpose. A human mind can not understand the way God works. One day, justice will be handed down and everything will be made right.
Also, in regards to 363
3: While the serpent tricked Eve into eating the fruit, they still knew what they were doing was wrong, so why shouldn't they be punished?
4: Examening the differences between the offerings, it makes sense that God would be displeased. When Kain killed Abel, the others would want to avenge his death, so in an act of mercy, God made him immune to them wanting him dead. It was an act of undeseved love.
9: The rainbow was a reminder to man that God would never destroy the world like that again.
10: The tower was man attempting to prove they were equal to God. To humble them, God confused their languages showing the difference between man and God, which is better than he could have done which was kill them instantly.
12: Abraham loved God, but beyond that did nothing to deserve God's favor. That's the point though, in God's love, he gave Abraham far more than he deserved. As for sacrificing Issac, this proved that Abraham loved God above all else, even his family. I don't remember the exact quote, but Jesus said in order to follow him, we must hate our family in comparison. Abraham also knew that God could raise Issac from the dead, or find another way to interfere.
Sorry that I missed some things, and for any spelling/grammar mistakes.
>>366 Well, I have only read the first thirty or so pages of Genesis, so I wouldn't know about the stuff beyond that yet. I intend to one day have a commentray of the whole Bible, but that might take some time as I have other things on my mind than reading a book that I don't find all that interesting to begin with.
Anyway, glad to see you agree with me. I'll confess I expected a whole lot of crap about my list from various people, not that it would deter me in any way.
First off, sorry for the double post; I hit reply too quickly. >>369 What I don't understand is, why would you so feverishly worship someone who will never, NEVER be pleased with what you do? Another thing I wonder about is, why does God want us to worship him so much? I'm sorry, but it's just completely dictatorial to act like that. If we believe the Bible, which I don't but for argument's sake let's assume I do, God created the world in all its glory. I understand why we'd be grateful for that, but after the first ten thousand times of saying thank you I imagine it's enough.
If you want obedience, why give us free will? If you're omnipotent, why not make things right immediately? I don't understand the blind dedication some people exhibit in this regard. I hate the argument, 'God moves in mysterious ways.' That, with all due respect, is the answer people give when they have no backing whatsoever of their claims. I believe in more than just this life, but not according to any religion. I believe in a guiding force behind life, but not God. You say God wants our love, but who can truly love one who demands their worship? I would call that a case of Stockholm syndrome at best. Besides, why live a life of abstinence now if the only reward is a life of abstinence after death? If fun is forbidden, sign me up for a chamber in hell.
>>369, "One of the things moonphase seems to forget is that while God is perfect in love, he is also perfect in justice. That is the reason God must punish those who disobay">>>>
I didn't forget. I do not believe that sending people to Hell to burn and remain in torment for all eternity, never one moment of peace, is a 'perfect judgement.' It's evil.
"we have all fallen short of God's standards.">>
Of course, because we are imperfect. God demands impossible things from us. That hardly seems fair.
" He gave us free will to choose weather to obey him or not. He wants our love, but in order to truly love Him, we must make a choice." >>>
It's not really free choice if you get punished for making the 'wrong' decision. It's like a dictator saying 'you don't have to follow my illogical rules. But, if you don't, I'll torture you and then behead you. Make your choice :D"
"You seem short cited, thinking that just because something is bad now, that it doesn't have a greater purpose.">>>>
STILL does not justify why children are raped but Eeyop has a pen.
"3: While the serpent tricked Eve into eating the fruit, they still knew what they were doing was wrong, so why shouldn't they be punished?"
If they already knew right and wrong, what was the point of having a tree that would open their eyes to Good and Evil?
"Abraham also knew that God could raise Issac from the dead, or find another way to interfere." >>> Well that didn't happen for Jepthahs daughter, did it?
"Abraham loved God, but beyond that did nothing to deserve God's favor" Hadn't Abraham given up his home and goods, to wander around in the desert and in foreign lands, for years, because God said so? Not only did he love God but he seemed pretty obediant and faithful to me. Plus, if God can see into the heart of man, why pull a trick like that?
I've been reading the last few comments, it all sounds to me like the religion is something like brain washing. Hitler comes to mind, he was so manipulative that people actually believed what he said, the same goes for what is said in the bible.
>>372 I agree 100% with moonphase.
So it is okay when a let's say a murderer in prison all of the sudden finds God and he gets out because he converted to christianity? Please, give me a break. And what if he kills again, it's Gods will? There is a greater purpose behind the bastard killing an innocent human?
And don't get me started on the cases of the priests here in Belgium who rape innocent children. In your eyes they are Gods messengers, sorry I can't believe in a God who just stands by and let it happen.
I just get so furious of people who are blindly following what a stupid book, sorry if that offends you, is telling them to do. You all say, you are aware of what is going on in the world? In my eyes you don't, if you did you wouldn't be so blind to what is going on around you and say it's Gods will or he has a greater purpose for all the bad things that are happening.
I'm finished ranting
I hope nobody minds if I put in my two cents.
I do believe in God, and that God is still with us in our suffering. There is no answer as to why there is suffering, but I still believe that when we suffer, God suffers with us.
And I don't believe that ANYBODY is "blind to what is happening in the world". Everybody I know is appalled by the priests found guilty of rape, there is no angle to it that makes it even marginally okay!
Not to mention, I believe that most things in The Bible...well, that they didn't actually happen. Like the creation story of Adam and Eve. I believe that most stories were to convey a message, not to tell us how it literally happened. The Bible isn't something to be followed word-for-word.
I find that going to Church, worshiping God...it helps me with my faith. It's thanking God for what God has done, and talking, praying, singing...it helps me and it makes me know that there is something better, something beyond monetary goals and the want of power and pleasure. God helps me know that love is beyond all that, and that having faith in him and believing in him will help me live a happy life.
Okay, that was more like forty-six cents, but you get my point. Thank you all!
>>374 finally a Christian who knows what religions' real purpose is and agrees that:
>"The Bible isn't something to be followed word-for-word."
You are the kind of person that I respect.
you believe in your god because it gives you strength, makes you happy, but you also see beyond your religion, you do not shove your beliefs down my throat, and you dislike the rotten side of church [like the corrupted priests you mentioned]
thank you for your...forty-six cents :D
>>374 If the Gospel of Q is true, then maybe that's the best way to view Christianity.
>>375, well religions 'real' purpose is debatable; for some people in religion (in particular Islam and Christianity) believing and being a good person isn't enough on its own; certain acts have to be abided to and certain works done if you want to please your God properly and go to Heaven (or wherever.)
A more fundamentalist Christian would point out the scripture where Jesus claims he 'never knew' all these people who apparently did things in his name, because they did not do enough, or were hypocrites. Religion is very complex.
>>377 when I say religion I mean ALL religions from the birth of the human, when the first humans worshiped the sun.
most humans had always the need for something bigger than them to them strength. and that was the purpose of religion all alone to make ppl stronger.
islam and christinanity which are very young religions had the same purpose but it is the morph of these religions that makes it debatable.
>>378, oh right, yeah, that makes sense. I would say though, that those religions were really more "common sense" (with the knowledge that they had) than a desire for something to make themselves emotionally stronger; so I suppose the Earth MOther was worshipped because people relied heavily on the crops and seasons. It makes sense in those times that something mus have created the world. I think it was one of the Norse saga's where the writer explains that these people saw that every living thing had a start. The Earth is living, so there must have been some kind of 'Mother' who created this, and keeping her happy equals a happy Earth full of produce. Then the same with worshipping specific bits of nature (the sun, the rivers, etc.) It was practical.
But then, like you say, they began to have gods that helped them become physically strong (or so they thought.) War-like gods began to appear, so we start with the Aesir (the Germanic gods of fertility) which turn into fairies and elves, and are replaced with Nordic Gods like Odin. Sort of like the Beserkers, who practically worshipped the wolves.
The idea of a god who keeps you emotionally or morally strong seems new; but I don't know enough about many of the old religions to say that with absolute certainty.
I suppose it was whatever society needed at the time (I'm thinking the Northern Europeans right now, but I think this goes for nearly every civilisation). So at first it was all about food and having healthy children; then later more emphasis was on battle, as the people began to war and later still, when people are very stressed and anxious die to our chaoctic lives, a god who is forgiving and who gives comfort.
You can see that with the Bible too. In the beginning of the Bible, Yahweh is sort of distant. Then, when Israel began to fight it's neighbours, he became a God of war. When they were destroyed by Babylon and put in slavery, Yahweh became a God of forgiveness, and the idea of a Messiah ad a 'return to Israel' was finalised. Then again int he Greek scriptures, Yahweh is a God of love during Jesus' preaching, and a God of Judgement during the times of Christians being tortured by the Romans.(That's a simplistic over view, granted, but people have written entire books om how God changed to suit the needs of the people.)
>>379 that's so very true
and to add something more
it is the knowledge, education and the kind of life people live now, that makes more and more people to turn atheists or agnostics or non-religious.
because there is a need for people to show off their own strength and not some strength that some god gave them.
[I don't think that makes any sense but I can't write it better than that :facepalm: ]
Religion can be scary and in the wrong hands it can be twisted to suit their cause. I think in this day and age it is up to each individual to use their brains and common sense to find what is right for them. The problem is when people blindly follow the masses, or do something because so and so told them to. Often you find it is young people who are the most impressionable, and are the ones 'brainwashed' into these ideologies. This is evident in small cults and the bigger religions. It is no wonder that so many people are becoming atheist after seeing religion abused in such ways.
Hmm, well, evolutionary wise, maybe the lessening of religion is a natural progression as people don't 'need' god. A pantheon of gods changed to monotheism, so atheism is maybe the final step.
Or, from a religious point of view, maybe it's just following the prophecy that, before armaggeddon, people start turning away from god in droves because they become arrogant and self reliant.
In any case...
>>382
Well the end of Christianity [or the end of the world for them] is when another religion takes the throne ofter them.
as christianity did 2000 years ago. :)
so if it's not atheism it will be probably a new religion.
>>383, Yeah, I was taught that people would turn away from god (atheism, I guess) and then god would step in and take control again (locking up satan and whatnot). Which seems a bit unfair really, to wait until no one belives and then act, when people have been praying for him/her/it for centuries.
I read a few of the comments and there ones I agree to and those I don't. I don't think turning away from God is arrogant or selfish. Nor do I believe that I'm going to hell for being an atheist either.
If the Bible is correct in saying that God loves all his children then he'd love me regardless of me being a non-believer or gay.
That's the problem with the Bible I think, it's suppose to perch the word of the lord. Well I don't think God would be against love of any sort. That's why I stopped believing because of what the church has become. (though got all are like that, I know a few that "bend the rules" a bit)
What I'm trying to say is that if I were to believe in God, I'd believe in him for the reasons everyone loves him; I'd love him, not the church. I'd believe in the hope, not the word. (cause words can be twisted)
I'd believe in the concept, not the religion.
"Christianity has, sadly, focussed more on avoiding sin. But you should love your God, not fear Him."
Saying people do not believe in god because they fear him (I can't remember who said that above) is rediculous! If I don't beleave what have I got to fear? Nothing.
Lets go back to basics... Do animals pray? or beleave in god? No! because they are animals. We are animals, just a differnt species to what is thought of by some people as the less inteligent animals. So does that mean that animals are going to hell? (in my opinion no because there is no hell, no after life, etc etc) No because if they dont need to then never do we, there is no need for people to waste there time doing so.
And I'd just like to point out that eeyop1428 you are proberbly one of the reasons a lot of people dont beleave... preaching! Also in my opinion you don't have an argument as you have no facts, debates work on facts and a (again in my opinion) fictional book just doesn't cut it! (I think of it as mythology).
But I think believeing in god as a way find peace is proberbly a good thing, if it helps that person sort there mind out.
I beleive in gin god:D gin ichimaru!!! seriously i do...Long story
Lady Hyena-chan
I am a Christian (ostensibly a Lutheran, though my views on transubstantiation, at least are notably more generically Protestant).
Since I went to a private school where they actually taught Bible classes, I've found that a frequent point of contention is the pervasiveness of Legalistic thought in many of the more conservative denominations. As humans are incapable of seeing beyond the surface, many otherwise decent followers fall into the trap of judging one's "Christian-ness" by how one acts, leading some to feel superiority over those who are less upright, which directly contradicts St. Paul's instructions to the Ephesians:
'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.'
[Ephesians 2: 8-12, NKJV]
In other words, since no one can get into Heaven by good works alone, and the only way to salvation is through faith (as going by the assumptions which are at the very core of Christian theology), no one is in any position to boast of their good deeds. And since no one is born a Christian, all are unsaved at some point, and thus it is unjust to persecute one who is unsaved.
Of course, there's the whole thing where those who adhere to different religions (Atheism counts as a religion--just not an organized one--because belief in the nonexistence of deity is still belief) tend to get rather indignant at the implication that their beliefs are either wrong or 'not good enough', which is probably the chief reason why so many otherwise agreeable people tend to go on vehement rants when Christianity is brought up. (Interestingly, the Catholic church, of all things, allegedly makes provisions for those who believe in a Creator deity but not Jesus -- a scriptural interpretation that, if correct, would effectively swell any estimate of the ranks of the saved by several-fold. Of course, it sounds almost too good to be true (because, despite misconceptions, a good Christian doesn't want people to go to Hell, which can evidenced by the sheer effort the Church has historically put into evangelism), which prompts the cynic in me to wonder if this is ever -correct-, let alone theologically sound.
Ah, sorry for forcing you all to listen to me dither and angst about theology and the ultimate destination of people's souls, but I tend to get like this whenever I contemplate religion and related subjects. I tend to worry about things, and I am very prone to stress and anxiety (though I suppose that's natural, considering what my younger brothers are like), and it is very... well, cathartic is the closest I can think of... so yeah, it's very cathartic to be able to put that of thing into words for others.
TTFN, I reckon!
>>338 "(Atheism counts as a religion--just not an organized one--because belief in the nonexistence of deity is still belief)"
Atheism is the lack of belief in any deity.
The lack of belief in something due to their being no evidence isn't a belief system and cannot be counted as a religion.
On average people do not believe in fairies. Why? Because there is no evidence. The non-belief in fairies isn't a belief system and is not in any way a religion.
@388- Actually, here are just some of the reasons people dislike Christianity so strongly:
http://www.evilbible.com/why_i_am_not_a_christian.htm
Also, this list is rather amusing:
I'm a Christian from over on fanfiction.net.
I believe that everything in the Bible is true and actually happened. Because if only certain parts of the Bible are true, how can we trust any of it? All scripture is 'inspired by God', so if we decide to look at it as an allegory or fairy tale, we'd have to take everything as an allegory or fairy tale.
God wants to love everyone, but God hates sin. He loved everyone on earth (us sinners) enough to send his Son to die as a perfect sacrifice that would wipe away the sins of anyone who is willing to repent and follow Him. That's the heart of the thing, and the foundation of what I believe.
I have one comment about hell. An amazing book called "The Singer" has this quotation at the beginning of one of the chapters: "God, can you be merciful and send me off to hell and lock me in forever?" "No, Pilgrim, I will not send you there, but if you chose to go there, I could never lock you out."
I don't know why I'm even bothering to comment on this thread but I feel like I should just get my opinion out. I don't believe in a god, many gods, or any form of divine godlyness, and here is some of my reasoning:
The Egyptians and the Greeks and quite a few more created their own set of gods too explain away event that they couldn't explain scientifically. So, if they very much believed in their gods and the events their gods caused, only for us to learn that it could all be explained with science, who can be sure that the Cristian God is any different? Who's to say that Catholics aren't just using God to explain away so called miracles they otherwise can't comprehend?
Another point-If such a thing as a god exists, than where did it come from? How did it come into existence? Does it simply just..exist? Highly unlikely.
Feel free to try to prove me wrong if you think you can. I'm open to argument here. If you want to try to make me a believer then please, go right ahead.
Another point of why I do not believe in God-If God truly exists and truly created all of human kind, than why would he allow his creations the capacity to believe in anything other than him/herself? Bringing up another point, why do we all assume that God is a Man? Probably because in the time that the theory of a god or higher power came to light, men were considered dominant over women in most of the world, therefore God was assumed to be a Man. There really isn't anything solid to go on when investigating God since it all started before people even thought to document events. How do we know that someone just made God up in order to, I don't know, maybe gain popularity or just to have something of his own passed down.
It's impossible to prove God's existence, but at the same time, it's equally impossible to completely disprove his existence either because it is strictly a matter of opinion and not solid fact.
God is not a man or a woman. He is beyond anything we can comprehend. It's impossible to understand, which can be really very annoying.
Christians believe that God is infinite-he has always existed. Again, impossible for our human minds to comprehend. God is this limitless, incredible being who decided to write this story-the story of History and Earth. He had no beginning and will have no end.
God gave us the ability to choose because if he had just given us one option (the option to love him) our love would be meaningless. It's like making a robot that cannot do anything /but/ love or obey you. When people choose to love and obey God, it means more.
I can't prove God's existence-no one can. But look around. Everything from a supernova to the tiniest cell is so complex and beautiful that there has to be some explanation. And honestly, evolution is just another theory crafted by man so they had an alternative to God as the creator.
>>396 Who says that this guiding intelligence is, per definition, God? That is only the point of view for some religions. What if there is an omnipotent creator, who gives us the freedom to choose whatever we want, and won't ever punish or hate us if we don't decide to love it?
I agree that this universe, even the fundamental constants, display a staggering degree of both beauty and improbability, but that does not mean there is a 'God' in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim view of things. I also don't believe that Earth is the only planet which houses sentient life; that would be illogical if you seek love, like the Intellect (as I call it) does.