What is your Definition of a Mary Sue? Tell us what you think.
My definition of a Mary Sue is a character that has little to no personality, no flaws (ah, details XD), and overcomes problems way too easily. Characters that are just there to have superpowers and whom you can't really relate to as well as other characters.
I don't have a fixed definition, there's a variety of factors, really.
What I see most often are:
I'm still kicking myself because in Flames of Paradise (it's under the name Ninjamagik on ff dot net and it's a parody), I didn't give Esuma a cool attitude and didn't make her a rebel (I was going for overly sweet). I missed out on a lot of points in the litmut test, not to mention the cool rebels are the ones that grate the most on MY nerves.
Mary Sues...
There is no fixed definition. What would make a character a Mary Sue in one fandom will be just enough to make them fit in in another.
But things to watch out for are these (in addition to those Karama posted):
1) Has saved the world in a setting where this does not happen every day
2) Has a large following for no apparent reason
3) The character is like the sun, all others orbit around him/her
4) Character has an unusual/unique weapon/skill that is not commonly found in that setting. Even better when they have this weapon/skill FOR NO REASON or if it's never explained.
5) The character is basically a clone of Dante, from Devil May Cry
6) Eyes=Emerald/Ruby/Moonlit/Indigo Orbs, Hair=Locks, Skin=Ivory/Silk/Etc.
^ Really unsure how describing someone's eyes as a specific colour is Mary Sue material =/ Saying "Green" or "blue" for someone's eyes can get a little boring at times you know.
I can't remember the last I used blue actually. I usually go with cerulean.
Same goes for describing hair and skin. There's a myriad of methods of describing how something looks or feels so that really isn't a Mary Sue IMO.
1) everyone orbits them
2) the plot follows them constantly
3) s/he's ALWAYS in danger, and always gets out alive. Practically immortal.
4) most prettiest/handsome person alive
5) has some form of over exdurated (I'VE FOROGOTTEN HOW TO SPELL ITTT) uniqueness about them (for example, is a werewolf with a massive craze for hunger and will kill everyone in a 3 state radius of them if not locked in a super cage made of a rare all called thisoreisunraltium... ¬_¬)
6) They have some unusual feature in the mix, like their eye colour is red/violet or it changes colour [for no reason at most](I'm guilty of this, but it's only because he's part demon... I kinda based it off me since my eyes change from blue to green to grey depending on my mood, my mum told me, they go Grey when I'm angry)
7) their hair was naturally -insert totally unnatural colour- when they were born, and they're not an anime character |: (only anime/cartoon characters can have naturally unusual colours at birth)
nyeh.
This is one I made for a roleplaying site I ran a while back, but it still applies.
Mary-Sue (mâr'ē-sōō)
n. Originating from fanfiction terminology, a Mary-Sue is a character that is, generally, "too good to be true". She is typically beautiful, strong, intelligent, talented, is somehow connected with a major character if not a love interest (usually in fanfiction, but also in fan RPGs), and has very few (if any) flaws. Her past is usually tragic, often similar to the "Anastasia" story, leaving her as the last of her line/race/kind/etc, and her personality is usually outgoing, confident, and the rest being that of their maker's own personalities or ideals. There is almost always at least one thing remarkable about her appearance, often being an unusual eye color. Even though they tend to be godmodding at times, they are actually very susceptible to getting killed (tragically). The male version of this is called a "Gary-Stu".
@Francys Pai: Actually, when a character's eyes/hair/skin/other features are described in an overly elaborate way (key words include orbs (instead of eyes), 'silken', 'raven' hair, elaborate words where simpler ones would work better and make more sense (sorry, but blue works far better than cerulean unless you're talking about the actual color Cerulean-yes, I am aware of the fact that Cerulean USED TO BE used as the word Blue is today-, but then you might as well use Ultramarine/Azure/Navy Blue/Sapphire/Palatinate Blue/Cyan/Carolina Blue/International Klein Blue/etc.)), that's one of the biggest and easiest tipoffs that the character in question is a Mary Sue, since normal words are obviously inadequate to convey the sheer magnificence of the blue of the character's eyes. If EVERY character is described in this way, then it's just overly flowery writing and ought to be cut anyway.
No single thing in that list makes a character a Mary Sue, but elaborate descriptions are the biggest indicator upon first meeting the character. Granted, some characters do have weird hair colors, weird eye colors, unnaturally pale skin, etc., but when a character is described as 'An ethereal girl with clear, silken skin, boundless cerulean orbs, and lengthy raven locks', it makes me roll my eyes. That's not beautiful writing, it's not even good writing, it's overly elaborate and mostly unnecessary crap, and no amount of denials or explanations on the part of the author will change that. /rant
Sorry about that, it's just something that aggravates me a lot when I see it passed off as good writing.
Whether or not the character melds into the fandom. I'm not a fan of OC's by nature but there are times when for the sake of plot development the best plan would be to introduce a new character. What destroys this character and makes me dislike the story? If the character is so trapped in being (whatever the author wants it to be) that the character simply does not fit in the fandom.
Example: Mahou shoujo like characteristics in a mostly canon Dragonball Z fanfic. Going Super Saiyan 17 with flowing (beautiful) silver hair and a lean, petite body structure and being born from a main character in a time span given that is not long enough for pregnancy much less birth... somehow it doesn't fit into the DBZ universe. (...yes I have read a fic with this and more) (FYI ever noticed the higher on the Super Saiyan scale one gets the more BULKY and MUSCULAR they get?)
An example of OC's integrated well into a story (and even being the main character) would be a South Park fic I read recently. While the main character is an OC and a child of two of the main characters she melds well into the story and the South Park universe, as though she belongs there and wasn't just shoved there to fulfill some fanfiction author obsessive fantasy of becoming THE star of their favorite show.
I don't mind OC's, every once in a while I write one, what I mind is characters not fitting in their own goshdarn story.
(note: I also dislike when people write canon characters in a way that they don't fit in their own fandom)
(note2: It's not that hard to make something fit. AU fanfiction exists for a reason. If you want to create a universe where it is perfectly fitting for mahou shoujo to be in DBZ please do so but in canon-verse it just doesn't fit well... we could use more AU anyway... I like AU fanfiction x3; )
My definition would probably go along with the ones already posted here. I have to say, however, not all characters who have Sue/Stu-ish traits are immediately classified as such.
Take, for instance, Hellsing's top vampire Alucard. The guy is completely invincible, has no real flaws to speak of(I don't call bloodthirst a flaw), he is the 'No-Life King', from what I understand (and I haven't read the manga, just seen the anime and OVA) he's pretty much the oldest vampire alive, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of things. Is he a Gary Stu? I don't count him as one, that's for sure.
@Red: I often use elaborate colors for eyes, but never for skin or hair. I mainly do this in shipping fics, although occasionally I prefer the use of words like 'emerald' and 'sapphire' over green and blue even in a non-shipping context. I also tend to use crimson instead of just red, but I feel that's justified because crimson is a certain shade of red. Having said that, I often use the names of different shades of a color instead of just the base color, if it's applicable to the character in question. Using gems to describe color is more for shippiness though, in my case.
I'll end my rambling now, before I get any less coherent. I shouldn't be posting so early in the morning anyway.
@ KatonRyu: I think I gave the wrong impression. What I'm complaining about is the excessive sort of elaboration, especially when nothing is ever JUST red, or blue, or green, but always spectacularly described variations thereof. It gets even worse when the writer doesn't even realize that they're using color names that are most definitely NOT the color they're trying to describe.
If someone's actually got weird crimson colored hair or odd emerald-colored eyes, fine. But naturally occurring red hair is not ever crimson (unless you're talking about anime characters) and emerald is a truly bizarre color for eyes, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.
What I mean is people using these descriptions in an otherwise normal setting, where you have a crowd of people with blue or brown or green eyes and blonde, brown, or black hair, and then suddenly there's this magnificent person walking around with emerald orbs, raven locks, etc. etc.
Er...#10 was me, I clicked reply too early.
Like I said earlier, this sort of thing is a very common Sue trait. It's so common, in fact, that I'd say nine out of every ten or eleven times I see it, the character ends up being a Sue.
Oh, the Mary Sue topic. I think I'll start with the issue of hand, special colors for eyes, and hair for that matter. I don't mind having special colors added into he fanfic. However, most of the time these colors when used, I have found to be used for making characters more special, rather then as an artistic means, like it is supposed to be. I rarely if ever use variations on colors and tend to use basic colors unless I feel the story needs a little more variety to my words. Or, if I have a specific reason, like describing Hitsugaya Toshiro and Ichimaru Gin as having different teal colors. I also try to stay away from jewel tones as I find those are some of the most elaborate colorings.
My definition for a Mary Sue is an unbelievable character for any given story. Simple as that. This means that some characters that would be classified as a Mary Sue due to sterotypes won't necisarily be classified as such. It honestly isn't the sterotypes that define the term. I also feel that Mary Sues vary in degrees too.
Mary-Sue: Over-idealised characters who are better than everyone else at pretty much everything.
Hmmm, what do I think makes a Mary Sue / Gary Stu. I say its a charcter with little to no real plot that just does about everything. If the main character is a true master of it, they are a grandmaster. If the main character is the one, then she becomes the two. If there is a power that cannot be used without a very serious cost, they find the loophole and abuse it to no end. Its a hard thing to classify though honestly, but I pretty much boil it down to a character who is just there and can do anything without explanation, is the perfect person, or just plainly has no real past aside from the usual tragic "this happened and this too, oh and we can't forget about that, and because of all that, I must now do this, and now that I'm thinking about this also happened which led to this and or that" type of characters without any real purpose other then to outshine everyone at everything.
One of my latest characters has been accused of such in the past week and I know that didn't even read the story proper.
Now, if I just listed a few of his abilites, being the last child of Arcues (god of all pokemon), being a partial immortal who reincarnates, and say that he's a master of a lost sword art in modern times, then with that alone, yes he could very well be labeled a Gary Stu without a second though, which are actually some of the reasons why this guy called my character a Gary Stu.
I however fail to see how he is Gary Stu myself, I've put a lot of work into him. Yes he has unique abilities, but he hardly abuses them just for the sake of abusing them or showing off and they do come at a cost. Yes he can survive a near fatal wound, in this case a bullet wound that just barely nicked his heart, but it took the power of his mother Arcues herself to help make sure he didn't die, and he still had to take it easy and deal with all the pain it caused. Yes, he is immortal, but only in the sense that he could live forever, he's far from impervious and he reincarnates into a new body with a new life every 120 years, merely passing down his memories and power to his next of kin. Yes, he has a sword in modern times, but its a keep sake from his past lifes, something of a hobby for him and his chosen way to keep in shape. For all of these good points though, he also has his share of bad points. He lost many past loves and often dwells on thier memories, even casting off love for a while. Another major point for him is that in order to use most of his abilities from being the child of a god, he doesn't just have them, his body must make a very slow eleven year change, where he slowly gets his powers bit by bit.
Personally though, I'd like some other opinions for those who would like to take the time to read it. The story is called "Watcher of Arcues".
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5339443/1/Watcher_of_Arcues
The character is question is named "Thomas" ,but has the additional name of "Soular".
Sorry if this just seems like I'm ranting, but long story, its been a long day and an even longer month.
Oh, on a final note I've forgetton. The story is rated M for a few distinct scenes
Oh, on a final note I've forgetton. The story is rated M for a few distinct scenes
A lot of these are symptoms of a Sue, not what makes a Sue. The use of special adjectives will usually end up coloring the narrator more than the character, being why so many people automatically assign it to a Sue. Love, for instance, will make even the most uncouth man suddenly poetic about his heart-throb, and it's as old as literature itself. So old that Catullus used them back in Ancient Rome and come Shakespeare's time it was quite a cliche.
It's obvious to see how this is a symptom; the author is so "in love" with their character that they use these terms. And, honestly, it's hard not to love your own characters--anyone who's roleplayed can attest to that. There are other reasons this might be showing up, though; perhaps the author is suffering Thesauritis, or maybe they're making a point with the color of the vocabulary rather than the vocabulary itself.
Mind you also, there are well-written and interesting characters that would be labeled as Stues and Sues out there. The trick is making sure people don't hate them for being Stues/Sues.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5555663/1/The_Sphere_of_Varrock
Read Chapter 1, 2, and 5. I don't think any of these characters (Solo, Dream/Dreem, or Emma) are Mary Sues and Gary Stues. Definitely not the girls--I'm a guy.
Solo and Dream. Solo is BASED off of my friend, and Dream is based off of me, except he deals with more crap than me. He also, well I don't want to spoil the story.
I just want your opinions.
I've always tried to use different ways of describing someone, so when I describe Emma, I'm showing you how attractive she is to Solo.
I have multiple definitions of a Mary Sue character.
>>20 I also use that method in my stories. If I'm writing in the POV of character A who loves character B, I make A describe B very differently to how C, B's brother, would describe him. It's sueish if the first or third person POV describes her as unusual, like 'tumbling golden locks' instead of 'blonde', and when none of the other characters are described in similar vivid detail.
>>22, About your 2. I've seen those frequently when the writer doesn't like the main character for whatever reason, and it normally involves a bit of character bashing. I guess it's either based on hatred for the canon hero and/or the desire to be the canon hero. (Those are the self inserts... also not good.)
>>23, as for 3.) do you mean the OC isn't given a backstory, or main cast just knows who the OC is without any sort of meeting between them?
>>22 As for characters with no back story - I read a real corker a while ago. It started with a character I've never heard of bursting into a room, yelling at one of the canon characters about about something he'd done to another character I've never heard of. (What he'd done was never made clear either!) She then slapped the actual character and walked out again.
I asked in my review who these two were, and got the response "It says in my profile". Which it didn't, other than giving two names and saying they were OCs. Well, I got that already, thanks! When I suggested it, the writer agreed that it might actually be a good idea to write a fic that explained who these people were!
>>24 -
On number two, I think I've come across a few fanfics where the characters have been replaced due to some sort of hatred, but more often... or maybe they just stand out to me, the replacement comes from the fact that they think the characters are cool and want their own cool character.
As for number three... those two can be what I was talking about, but I was talking about specifically the character who just shows up out of no where and is accepted by the characters without them saying anything, or reacting how people are meant to act.
>>25 - That! That pust into words what I meant in my comment for >>23. I don't mind having to read another fanfic to figure out who an OC happens to be and I in fact have a few OCs that's background is written out in one of my other fanfics. I've come across to many that just slap random characters in and I'm like... where did they come from? Whose this random character flirting with/beating up the canon character? It speaks of a writer not really thinking about things.
Yuki from Vampire Knight.
>>27 - I'm not going to argue that Yuki isn't a Mary Sue, simply because what little I've seen, she does seem to be one. However, I think you are slapping the Mary Sue label on her simply because you dislike her character.
I mean, this post is time stamped close to a post on the "some of the things in some fanfics that just annoy the hell out of you" thread, where someone goes into a rant about how they disliked a certain love triangle and threesomes simply because "that Mary Sue" is in there. (2011-12-10 13:38)
It is possible to like and enjoy a Mary Sue just as much as it isn't possible.