I was just curious about this. Is anyone else annoyed when they're reading a fic based on an anime, Dragonball Z or Sailor Moon for an example, and then during the fic the characters will start saying Japanese words like 'Hai' or 'Otousan' when they could have just been translated into 'Yes' and 'Father'?
I personally find it annoying. Despite knowing the translation (I'm trying to learn Japanese right now) I find it distracts me from the actual fic. It's even worse if I don't know the translation and have to scroll back to the top of the page to find out what the word means when repeat again when I come across another Japanese word I don't know.
So thoughts?
For me it depends, if it's left in it's original Japanese in english translations then I understand the need for it to be so in fiction, but otherwise, it is unnecessary and annoying.
It's the epitome of stupidity. /Thread.
I am one of the author doing that. and I love to read it in fics too.
I am into H&M from sailor moon fandom. so words like "senshi" or "henshin" are works that are in my stories without even second thought because I am not familiar with the "scouts" one and I refuse to use it since it is part of the eng Dub butchering. and using soldier all the time can also be annoying. other than those two. I do use random Japanese and honorifics. hai and ne are used the most. if there is a parent i do use otou-san, okaa-san. and not always but sometimes I use arigatou or gomen.
Is the feeling of the character's being Japanese. it is the same as to place the characters in Japan, so their houses being JApanese style that most ppl are unfamiliar with. or have them pay for things in Yen and not Euros.
I don't have the translation of the words in my A/N except if i use some for difficult one that not everyone is familiar with. But i should start having a translation.
by the way >>3 @... call a great percentage of anime fanfic writers stupid is not the kindest thing in the world you know.
i also do it. i make sure i know what the word is and that is correct before using it, but it adds a little something to the story..... it is based on a Japanese manga/anime anyway.
>>4 i think you are right, i have several words that are pretty commonly known... but i guess i should place translations in an A/N.
and there really is a huge percentage of fanfic writers who do the same. don't want to have a fist fight to break out over the internet, lol. ^_^
I don't put Japanese words in, but in the main fandom I read/write one of the main characters has a French Cajun accent, so occasionally he speaks in French. So long as there's a translation at the bottom for less obvious words, it's fine...and anyway, in Japanese manga don't they use Japanese words sometimes anyway, moaking using them in your fics actually more accurate to the original?
Write the whole thing in Japanese, or write the whole thing in English, unless you're writing about something unique to Japan. I have some patience for honorifics, IF done correctly and consistently, as they can give another layer of depth to characters' interactions that we can't convey in English. Also, a bilingual character using the occasional word or two from another language is fine. On the other hand...
'Otou-san!' screamed Tifa. 'You're okay, ne? Daisuki! Oh, Otou-san, don't die, my Otou-san, don't die...'
And if that doesn't look stupid to you, I can only shiver at the thought of your fics.
>>8 you are good with examples as good as you are with your insults.
there is always a limit in the way you are using Japanese.
>'FATHER!' screamed Tifa. 'You're okay, aren't you? I love you[is that what daisuki means? i have no idea sorry]! Oh, FAther, don't die, my father, don't die...'
that's as annoying in english as it was in Japanese.
because some ppl use Japanese doesn't mean that everything is like that.
>“You didn’t give me the chance to thank you! So...Arigatou!”
this is an example of how I do it and how I like to read it.
it depends on the writing style.
a person who writes like your example is also a person who has A/Ns at the middle of the story saying things like "How kakkoii waz dat!"
as for my stories.
I might not be a native eng speaker, and I might have few grammar errors/typos here and there but I do put a lot of effort in my stories. I don't expect everyone to like them, but I expect at least for others to recognize my efforts, so please Don't jump into conclusions of what my stories could be like.
Ugh, wapanese. shudders
I'm of the same opinion as >>8 : you write the whole fic in English, or you write it in Japanese, but for the love of god stop sticking random babelfish translations into your prose. STOP. IT. It's annoying as all get-out, and it does NOT make you look cool or smart.
Part of the problem is that the things that actually would give more depth to characterization or interactions—using 'ore' instead of 'boku', for example—are never used (and look really silly stuck in the middle of an English phrase), and the things that are used (e.g. Otousan') translate perfectly into English and are therefor useless.
Of course, having said that, there's a few instances where it's okay to use Japanese. Honorifics, for one, if it's not overdone. (Same goes for other languages—for instance, it actually reads better to use 'Herr Mozart' rather than 'Sir/Mister Mozart'.) If a character's Japanese or the fic is set in Japan, then there's also a case for using a few words of Japanese here and there. A FEW.
Swear words being in another language is also, for the most part, fine. (If only because some of them don't really carry the same weight when translated to English. Go on, translate 'schweinehund'. Pig-dog. It doesn't really sound the same, does it?)
There's also when the actual movie/game/book/whatever uses other languages itself—for instance, in Assassin's Creed II nearly every sentence contains some Italian. In cases like that, it'd be okay to follow canon and stick a lil' Italian of your own. (Though really, at least ask someone who knows Italian. The amount of gloriously bad transliterations I've seen...)
Curiously, I'm more okay with people sticking languages /other/ than Japanese into their fics. Double standards? Perhaps, but then, Japanese is so overdone that it grates much more than, say, Italian. I'd be more accepting of a character saying, "Buon giorno, Alex!" than one saying, "Ohayou, Alex-san!" Gnngh. See? It was my own example and even so it still grates.
Also: >>4 They weren't calling the writers stupid, merely saying that gratuitous wapanese is stupid. Which it is.
Thank you, my dear DuxAtrum. Maybe it's not so bad in other languages because the writers only use it for things like greetings and valedictions, as opposed to...
'Bonjour! My name's Victoire, et j'habite en France, avec mon pére et ma soeur who is really penible, gawd, I just veux to hit her! On jeudi, we went à la cinéma et c'etait fantastique- UNTIL my sister ate mon popcorn. Je attacked her avec un masamune, mais c'etait trop retard- she'd fini the lot! Donc, le next thing nous knew, a giant lizard attacked! Nous clung together en fear, mais at ça moment, our père saw le lizard and drew son revolver. Ils had un vicious fight, mais mon père won dans le end!'
so I see the problem here is the over-used Japanese not the use of another language in english written fiction.
It is like the Yaoi fics, right? because a bunch of them are really bad written then all Yaoi fics are condemned.
because ppl over-using Japanese on their fics then all the fics using japanese are labeled stupid.
nice logic
I have said countless of times that I might follow a really heavenly fandom, with high quality writers. I haven't ever seen in my fandom examples like the >>11th one
just tell me one thing ... are you making them up or you have read then in fics? I am just curious.
Those two are made up, obviously, b/c I was too lazy to find a fic. And the second is used to illustrate what DOESN'T happen with other languages, so it would be rather difficult to find a real example. However! If you desire real examples...
'Read and review, onegai shimasu!'
'A/N: Tell me what you think, ne?'
'Gomen, it just... hurt so much'
'"G-go-gomen!" he stuttered and tried to stand, but the girl stopped him.
"Don't be sorry" she managed and he blushed.'
'Baka, why didn't you tell me you were naked?'
'That's the point, BAKA, you never do anything to me!'
So I see you have been reading me, or could it be that you picked up just the lines I use Japanese.
did you really shivered at the sight of my stories?
because you shivered a lot at the thought of them.
excluding the A/N that they are not part of a story
the first three lines where picked from my story "Tomodachi"
an 2,355 words one shot
with two gomen, one baka, an arigato and an okaa-san + the sounds oi and mo that i used one time each [arigato and okaa-san are shown in the next lines that you didn't saw when you scanned the story]
“Arigato, Tenoh-san” he said and headed for his best friend’s room.
“Okaa-san, are you still here?” yelled the blonde as they enter her house.
the other one is from my story "the war between us" a 1,615 words oneshot which was the only line i had japanese in.
What should I say? thank you for advertising my fics?
by posting my lines you do prove that your examples are nothing like my stories, and also my statement of the limits in using japanese words.
>>7
believe me i know about how easy it is for some to throw insults on this site in particular. and i'm right there with you about defending, but with some writers it is best to just let them go and think they won. you know?
if there are people that can look at other's work and start picking things out then personally i think their work should be available for the same. what's the point of having a bully look at everyone's things and say stuff about it and not have the chance to hear about their own. but that's just my thought.
i do agree too, that there is a limit. it shouldn't be like every other word in another language, but it is okay for a few through out the story, like i said before it adds something to the story.
@14- Actually, you've just strengthened my point. I skim-read, so no, I was not scrutinising your fics for every pointless use of Japanese. I didn't have to (especially when you do it for me!).
We have the words 'sorry, thank you, stupid, mother and every-other-Japanese-word-you-are-using' already, in English. If you were using a word like 'takoyaki' or 'onsen', fair enough- the Western equivalent would be convoluted or not quite accurate, respectively. But having a character say 'gomen' on one line and then having another character say 'sorry' on the next, or having 'thank you' and 'arigatou' on the same line is just... actually, I won't finish that line, as I wish not to enrage you beyond the point of no return.
I went to your fics because I'm lazy and the link was there; 'twas easy.
>>16 what "enrage" me is not your opinion about the random japanese, I couldnt care less for your opinion.
what does irritate me is the fact that you compare your shitty examples with my stories. If you can't stand Japanese speech is your problem but comparing my work with that:
>'Otou-san!' screamed Tifa. 'You're okay, ne? Daisuki! Oh, Otou-san, don't die, my Otou-san, don't die...'
is an insult.
and keep in mind that you have insulted me twice in this thread by calling fics that have japanese in them an "epitome of stupidity" and by comparing my fics with your imaginations.
The inappropriate (and above all, unnecessary) use of fangirl Japanese is tremendously irritating, and on occasion completely and utterly wrong. The numerous Japanese people I have met and spoken to do not speak English while shamelessly shoving in Japanese words, so I can't imagine why the representation of a character would be done as such. I agree with ..., so long as there's a perfectly good English counterpart to a Japanese word, not using it in an English-language story strikes me as being very, very odd.
And spoken as an obsessive someone who took up studying the language to avoid being uninformed, the errors made in Japanese makes me shudder in annoyance. To take a very simple example, thank you in Japanese is "arigatou", not arigato. Spelling errors in a language not your own? Unattractive, to be honest.
@17- I find it rather peculiar that you have sought, from your very first post, to make this a personal matter and act as though I am the only one saying this. Several other people have labeled the practice as being 'annoying', 'unnecessary' and 'stupid'. I have not called you stupid in this thread, I have said that random Japanese-usage is. I also don't see any difference between the way I have used Japanese in my example and the way you use it- YOU use Otou-san. YOU use 'ne' randomly (and, frequently, incorrectly, if indeed there is ever a 'correct' way to use 'ne' in a fic written in English. Saying 'I love you' in Japanese is no different to saying 'thank you' or 'sorry'- all three look stupid in an English fanfic. In other words, my example IS like your stories in its use of Japanese.
So no, I am not 'insulting you'; for all I know you rescue kittens from trees in your spare time. But I AM voicing a general peeve, that many fanfic writers share, and if you want to be furious about that, be my guest.
See.. I get your point, japanese in fics is difficult but sometimes the only way to get into character is to use a few phrases but don't go nuts. Ya know? Like i'm doing this fic where i'm trying to get them into character but some of them have funny little phrases but I don't use them for fear of offending people and it sounds weird.. maybe its just me x]
Hey. I'm not really into anime, which I assume is mostly in Japanese, right? Feel free to yell at me if I'm wrong. Well, I sometimes come by French in fanfictions or other languages, when the characters are on a vacation or something. I master four languages well, and got some basics of three. I mostly don't have dicciculties with it, but sometimes I do. I understand some Greek - only the basic words, though. I often don't understand everything of a whole line. When you are having a conversation, to me it's only important if I get the overall meaning. With fanfiction, however, I want to know exactly what's been said, thus it quite annoys me if someone writes a language I don't understand the full meaning of. Some put the meaning behind brackets in English. And sometimes that just looks like crap. When there is too much between brackets, for example. I like it better myself when an author writes down the meaning in English in an author note at the end of the chapter. If there are people that don't want to bother with knwing everything, unlike me, They're not 'forced' to read it, because it sometimes can be annoying to have brackets in between someone's story lines and they are unnecassary to you.
Because it's kawaii, ne? Ne? Ne???
And then John was a zombie.
I don't mind it for cultural things without an easy literal translation. Onsen was a good example given, because it's not just 'hot springs', but 'hot springs that the Japanese bathe in and are often said to have special qualities, sometimes indoors'.
I prefer it for honorifics, as long as it's done correctly. Calling someone 'Brother' to their face seems strange in English and it doesn't convey the same meaning as 'nii-san', 'onii-chan', 'aniki' or even 'anigimi-sama'. People should make sure they do it correctly though, I've seen countless older sisters, younger sisters and younger brothers called 'onii-chan' (big brother).
Having it when it's completely unnecessary can be annoying though. I could accept kokuhaku or even 'love confession' which is the direct translation, instead of something like 'asking her/him out', but I don't see a reason for using 'aishiteru' (I love you).
>>19 you should start pay more attention to what you say and what others say.
it wasn't a personal issue until you put my stories in the same basket with you example.
also the difference between you and the other posters is that you try to make a FACT out of your statement "epitome of stupidity" while the others simply shared their opinion.
also if you had paid a little bit more of attention on what I am complaining about is not the fact of the Japanaese in your example. Your example resembles a troll-fic even if it is in japanese or english. and my problem is when you compare troll fic with my fics. When i tried to explained what is the difference you went further by posting parts of my fics [without my permission, but I won't go there] as examples with a sarcastic tone.
and lets put my fics on the side because i am not all that great but if you can't see the greatness of this fic:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5548551/1/Its_All_About_Us
because the author uses otou-san and okaa-san in the characters' speech then you might have a problem here. not me an the rest of the writers who use Japanese in their stories.
Nope, dear, from your very first post you targeted me specifically, despite the person before me voicing their opinion as fact, also. I don't bother with 'IMO's etc, because anything anyone says about a matter like this is obviously just their opinion. You bizzarely chose to make this a personal matter; I humoured you. Read previous posts. Other people have called it 'stupid', 'wapanese' etc.
And if you don't want people to use your random Japanese in examples, don't link to your account.
>And if you don't want people to use your random Japanese in examples, don't link to your account.
my link to my account is there for ppl to read not copy my stuff without my permission.
I might not own the characters but I do own the plot even if there is no law to protect that, you still need to ask me before you post my lines.
also pick up some lines and judge my work without even giving a proper reading is low.
you are the first person I am arguing here and believe me I've been here long before you came.
I am not one of those ppl who will pick up a fight. but you irritate me. in my first post i just questioned your choice of words. I also told to inulover that I won't hesitate to defend myself, if you continue like that, and that's exactly what you did, turned it personal, insulted my work before you have even look at it. and you constantly refuse to understand what I am trying to say. you have done it before in another thread.
>>27 Now you're just being a bit silly, to be honest. Sure, '...' put their opinion forcefully, but you seemed determined right from the off to interpret it as a personal attack—even when they've clearly stated that it's not.
They're not even judging the overall quality of your work. You said you wanted real examples of gratuitous wapanese; they found them. In your fics. It's kind of your own problem if you use wapanese in your writing; don't fault them for using examples where they find them. We're not even saying that all fics that use Japanese are stupid. It's the (here, let me capitalize this so it's easier to see) OVERUSE OF GRATUITOUS BAD JAPANESE that is stupid.
Seriously, lighten up before you make a fool of yourself. '...' is not the only person who's stated that wapanese is stupid. Right now it looks like you just can't handle some honest criticism of your writing style.
By the by. "in my first post i just questioned your choice of words"? I think not. This is what you said: "call a great percentage of anime fanfic writers stupid is not the kindest thing in the world you know." In other words, you hopped straight to the passive-aggressive "Hey, you insulted me!" tactic.
>>28
first of I do apologize for this; >"in my first post i just questioned your choice of words"
you are right i shouldn't have reacted that way and I do apologize for that "..."
on another matter now, I do accept criticism when the critic have at least read my work, "..." simply didn't read my fic.
on the subject now:
>We're not even saying that all fics that use Japanese are stupid. It's the OVERUSE OF GRATUITOUS BAD JAPANESE that is stupid.
from my dictionary:
>overuse=to use sth too much or too often
>Graduitous=done without any good reason or purpose and often having harmful effects
I never thought my fics had such bad of an effect on ppl...
@27-Actually, if you were to try and argue this from a legal perspective, I think you would find that the way I am using your lines falls under the term 'fair use' and is perfectly acceptable. As for 'turning it personal', I suggest you reread the thread and note who personally targets the other first.
I have read the fic you linked to, and the author does NOT use Japanese in the same nonsensical manner. That said, it isn't a good fic.
I have also read through several of your fics. I haven't reviewed because that would be petty of me.
@29- And, indeed, you have overused Japanese, as you have repeatedly used it in places where it was completely unneccesary. So the use is gratuitous. 'Often' does not mean 'always', and it depends on whether or not you class 'irritation' as harmful.
>>31 I wish for you to name the stories you found the overuse,
I have no more energy to put in this argument, I just want to know were I have overdone it. do it as a last favor
Every one in which you have used a Japanese word where there is an English equivalent- so the ones I quoted from, and any others that do that. It's probably in every fic, as it's a writing habit. I cba to go and copy and text most (if not all) the titles. This is what a beta is supposed to fix.
I guess my attempt of making peace was also a mistake. So I don't wish anymore for you to tell me, Sorry for asking , I really am stupid after all.
Attempting to make peace is never a mistake. As to wanting to know where you've 'overdone it', bravo to you for accepting criticism. Just don't take it back! Asking someone for ways to improve is never stupid.
But allow me to add to >>33 with a golden rule of thumb: any use of Japanese where there's an <i>exact</i> English equivalent is a bit of a no-no. So the '-san' (etc.) honorifics? Sure. 'Arigatou', on the other hand? Just use 'thanks'.
As always, there's exceptions to every rule (see: the above about fics set in Japan and stuff). It's a sad fact that readers will usually react more negatively to the odd Japanese word than they would to German/Spanish/Greek/Elvish/etc.—but there you are.
(I'm going to add an extra tip, because I skimmed some of your stuff. When you write dialogue that would end in a '.' if it were on its own, you always put a comma before the quote marks. As in:
"It's like this," he said.)
>>35 >"It's like this," he said.
thanks for the tip it was something I really wasn't aware of. I'll try to add it in my future updates and when I find the time to edit my old stuff.
>>34
to be honest, making peace on this site does not work. there are too many people with unbending opinions who think they are helping when they are only making others angry and stop talking about anything. BUT IT'S ALWAYS WORTH A SHOT.
There are also too many people who adopt an injured, passive-aggressive stance whilst making unsubtle passes at those genuinely trying to help other writers improve. Just a thought.
>>38 THIS. I agree wholeheartedly. Endeavouring to make self sound like victim? Also unnecessary. It's more childish than anything else.
back on topic.
Why use some words in japanese when there are english ones?
here my thoughts and why I follow this writing style.
Hai, iie. instead of yes, no. why? because when i imagine the character saying it I can see the movement of their head. also in some occasions the single syllable "No" doesn't do the some job as the "Iie" example on that.
if by any chance you had heard a japanese woman screaming iie over her lover's dead body then you know that the NO can't picture this. because No as a sound is low pitched when the iie is more hysterical when it's needed. wanna see what I mean?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01xKFiK1J8
here Sailor Moon musicals, sailor moon watches her friends and comrades die one by one, at 3.15 she screams Iie.
Arigatou, gomennasai, instead of thank you, I'm sorry. in most cases Japanese use these two words wisely when they mean them. also almost always they bow when they say them. that's a gesture that thank you and sorry simply can't make me see it.
Baka instead of stupid/idiot/silly. actually this word has less power than stupid/idiot and more power than silly, so it simply can't be replaced.
A part of one of my stories that was used here previously as an example of "overused Japanese", which was the only Japanese word I had in the whole length of that one shoot.
>“What did I ever do to you?” the blonde threw her hands in the air as she found the answer completely ridiculous.“That’s the point, BAKA, you never do anything to me!”
the woman saying the second line is sexually frustrated, madly in love with the other. how would it be if I had it the other way:
>"That's the point, you IDIOT, you never ..."
sexual tension of the moment is completely lost because that sounds more like an insult than a desperate need for the other to understand.
>"That's the point, silly, you..."
Too cute for the emotional state of the character at that moment.
If that's still an overdone, overuse or whatever other word was used to describe it, then I am in fault here.
okaa-san, otou-san, instead of mother, father.
again there is a completely different way families interact in Japan, than in western countries.
a Japanese calls their mother: mama[very young age], okaa-san[most commonly by all ages], haha[when they speak about their mother to others], haha-sama[when nobles address their mother], that also has different levels of closeness.
If a Japanese calls their mother okaa-san everyday, and the moment they have a fight, they will address her okaa-sama, is something that in English can't be shown. that effect can't be shown in my language either, μαμά[:mama used by all ages, but mostly children], μάνα[:mana you start calling your mother μάνα when you feel that you are too old to call her mama, that happens around teenage years], μητέρα[:mitera is the formal way to address your mother, and is mostly used when we speak about our mothers], when I fight with my mother I still call her "mana" if i change it into "mitera" she will probably laugh on me.
Konnichiwa minna-san [or minna-sama] it is also a cliche greeting when you meat an audience for the first time.
"Hello Everyone" it just doesn't do the magic.
The purpose of using these random Japanese instead of the english words is to give the feeling that the characters they are indeed Japanese. Same as the use of fuku[:school girl uniform], senshi[:honored soldier/hero], henshin[:transformation pen], tatami[:knitted mat flooring], uwagi[:judo shirt], hakama[:judo pants], miko[:priestess], jinja[:shrine] or having the characters removing their shoes when they enter a house.
examples of language use has been in books for ages. Tolkien, used Celtic, dead languages or even made up languages, in his books.
my fav Fantasy adventure author the Forgotten Realms' R.A. Salvatore with more than 30 books for the same Dark elf hero Drizzt. he had his characters speaking into the darkelfen language, and also words like "Melee-Magthere" instead of warrior academy or every single character even those who weren't dark elves, they used the word "drow" in their speech, a word taken from the darkelfen language that means "Dark Elf".
I hope this explains a lot why I do use japanese when I do, and my discomfort when all this targeted my own work.
>>41 Okay I never tried to compare any fanfic with books, I set it as an example that happens not only in FF but in other media too,I just stated a fact, but other than that I had no intentions to compare anything.
I don't know if you ever heard of J-pop, J-rock etc. everything in the lyrics is in Japanese and then there is an english word out of nowhere.
even in my everyday speech, i am talking greek and I do say words in english here and there even if there is a greek word for that.
on the subject now, let's just agree that we disagree. I just wanted to make my points clear and why I use this practice, i did it, it is over, I believe this you believe that, so it's everything okay.
>>42 I can back you up on the J-pop, J-rock ;) The opening for 'getbackers' is one example of mine...
I don't know why I'm commenting, just thoguht I'd mention that ;P
In real life I use 'hai' rather than 'yes' because it just comes out like a natural reaction, and everytime it does I scold myself...
-hits myself- ignore me if you must. Just thoguht I'd point it out ^^' sawwwry.
>>43 also
>最後のキスはタバコのflavorがしたニガくてせつない香り
the first part of the first verse of Utada Hikaru's song "First Love" except the Flavor word you can easily see written in katakana キス"kisu"[kiss] and タバコ"tabako"[Tabasco].
this is how most of the J-music is.
Jeez, what has this thread turned into... You know, it's sometimes irritant to not hear or see the other person's reactions after all. Maybe it's easier to share things, because of the level of anonymity. Nevertheless, it's easy to interpret things under a different tone than they're meant. I'm the sarcastic kind, and I've made a lot of enemies through that already. People don't see it by someone's writing, and don't give someone the chance to explain.
Anyways... I've never heard of J-pop. But you've made me curious. :)
I just think if you like reading/writing fanfiction with Japanese words in then that's great.
If you don't like reading/writing fanfiction with Japanese words in that that's great.
Really, personal opinion. If we all liked the same stuff then the world would be boring. :)
Just adding that on here :D
J-pop is cool though.
Personal opinion is fine as long as you either
A) Don't voice it
or
B) Apologise profusely for it
>>48 Why should anyone have to apologise for what they think? I personally think the both of you are being ridiculous, and I'm not going to apologise for thinking/posting it.
Seriously,
Always
Read
Carefully
And
Stop
Misinterpreting
>>50 It's true though... "Don't voice it" that can be hard for some, I always like to add my own opinion and THEN Apologise if it's offended anybody ^^'
Indeed. Note the acronym. Ye gods, people.
I would agree that Japanese should only be used in an English fic when there is no accurate translation for what is being conveyed - and even then, it's optional. English is, after all, an extraordinarily versatile language, which is why I personally use pretty much zero [insert gratuitous foreign language here] in my fics, unless the character in question is themselves likely to confusingly jump between languages. This may be because they're a bit pretentious, because they're a raging otaku, or because their English just isn't that good, and they feel the need to supplement it.
My father does that (Arabic, French and English). But then he's multilingual (speaking and writing, although he uses french similes and metaphors in his writing- instead of 'the last straw that broke the camel's back', it's 'the last drip of water that made the vase overflow' and so on) so it's normal to him. When he is writing about a French character, they say 'thank you' and 'sorry', not 'merci' and 'je suis desolée'. Even though they are French. And it's much more readable.
Still awful, mind, because he writes pure cheese in sentences the lengths of motorways.
Naturally - that's the translation convention at work. If they were, in-universe, trying to speak another language they had little facility in, though, the mangled multilingual dialogue might be a good shorthand to represent it. In moderation, of course, since it can get really irritating really fast.
Though it's not my favourite book, Tolstoy did this well in War and Peace. When French people were speaking amongst themselves, it was all in perfectly-comprehensible English (or Russian, of course, in the original version) that anyone from other nationalities just happened not to be able to understand if they didn't speak French. When the pretentious Francophile Russian nobility spoke in their own lamnguage, though, their speech was littered with awkwardly-used French loan-words and sayings.
You follow?
As long as the words are easily understandable, like 'no' and 'thank you', then I think it's okay. Also, in Bleach the words for 'captain' and 'vice captain' are easy to figure out if you've watched the anime. I think using Japanese adds a sense of authenticity, so I like it.
I will not enter the debate of: just how many japanese words can you put in a fanfic before it becomes... too much'
However, people who do so, have to do so sensibly. What irks me me most is people using japanese as if it were to make the story better. I don't know japanese except for the basic kinda stuff you hear in all anime. Whole sentences in japanese grates my nerves to no end because I positively HATE to have to watch the A/N to know what was being said. Happened to me yesterday with elvish in a LotR and I felt like yelling.
@Iaculus > Perfect sense.
Honorifics are alright in the sense that we are use to it, though, in case of Bleach fanfics, I can read 'captain' and the wapanese equivalent without flinching. After all, we all call them shinigami and not 'god of death' (whatever the actual meaning could be).
I think the main problem is with the intent: some writers would use japanese to add something to a story, trying to stick to the spirit of the anime/manga, etc. And some would do so to hide some loopholes (well, if I see japanese words, I'd be more inclined to wonder what the author meant than actually 'reading').
>>58
that's a good way of putting it.
180, much?
only when things are said properly. ^_^
here's a question while we're on the topic of languages: If two characters are discussing sensitive information and decide to swtch to...let's say Japanese thanks to the thread, yet you continue to write in 'English' would that count?
Personally, in my stories, when somebody speaks or uses words in a different language, I indicate it. One character spoke exclusively German.
Also, coming up with a syntax for an English dialect was hard as hell.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand: I tolerate it only with honorifics (e.g. Taylor-san) when you wish to treat someone with respect. Otherwise, keep it simple, keep it English.
A 180 is a 180. Mmm, malleability...
Ah, Dux, I wasn't talking to you. It was in response to an earlier comment...
It annoys the hell out of me when used inappropriately.
By inappropriately I mean used too much, for things which have an English equivilent and so on.
Things like "hai" and "iie" should not be used. In English there are a load of different ways of saying yes and no. Use those instead.
Honorifics I can understand to a point. "-san", "-sama", "-chan" "-kun" etc all express relationships and I can forgive their usage. When it comes to family members though, I get a bit irritated. Yeah there are many ways of addressing your parents in Japanese because of all the suffixes/keigo etc.
But there are also ways of doing this in English too.
Mama, Mummy, Mammy, Mommy, Mom, Mum, Mam, Ma, Mother, and even in some relationships, just calling her by her first name. It can be represented in English.
Dada, Daddy, Pops, Pop, Papa, Pappy, Dad, Father,, and again, his first name. No need for Japanese there.
In many cases you can add a word to make it more acceptable in English. Like, how saying "Big Brother" isn't as done in English as a form of address as it is in Japanese. You could easily say "bro" or call them by their first name, or a nickname.
In calling someone a "baka" - there are so many words in the English language, surely a good writer will pick up a thesaurus and find a way of saying it that means the same as that implied by the word "baka". "fool", "idiot", "silly", "stupid", "brainless", "dummy" etc
Acceptable Japanese would be things like kimono, hakama, ninja etc. Item names that are intrinsically Japanese. I definately don't mind reading about the "Maboroshii no Ginzuishou" in Sailor Moon fanfiction, but Silver Crystal works fine too.
With Sailor Senshi, I also don't mind. Scouts sounds terrible anyway and was a poor translation attempt by the DiC dub anyway. Sailor Soldier is better and no less trouble than Senshi though.
Sometimes it can be plain old elitism and showing off to use Japanese in fanfic when there is a perfectly good English word.
But at the end of the day, fanfic is fanfic. Some people write to become serious writers, and they will use English before resorting to Japanese if possible, others will be writing purely for fun and can write their whole fic in grammatically inaccurate romaji and engrish for all I care.
As with most things, if you don;t like don;t read.
If I find a fic where the use of Japanese bugs me, I stop reading it.
There was one time I was reading a Hey Arnold fanfic and randomly Helga and the non-Japanese OC said "oyasumi nasai" and "amai yume" to each other, with no explaination as to why they knew Japanese or felt the need to use it. Not to mention the fact that it was a literal translation of the English and "amai yume" does not mean "sweet dreams" in the same sense as in English.
People who use it just to show off are annoying. Very weaboo.
If you wanna show off though, at least get it right, geez..
I use honorifics when they are relevant, and if I'm writing for a series that I've only watched in Japanese I'll use the terminology that is relevant. "Jibakushin", for example, I use interchangeably with Earthbound God (the English translation) -- because my target audience also watches the original Japanese and is familiar with the term.
The one 'gratuitous' word of Japanese that I use is "nakama". Then again, it's sort-of a key word in YGO and in my eyes, the sentiment it expresses is stronger than mere friendship.
I steer away from writing whole sentences in Japanese or something, unless it's a deliberate stylistic choice, such as a character singing/listening to a line from a song. (Not that I've done that yet.)
Other languages too. Sometimes... say, if there's a French character in a piece of fiction, if the narrator doesn't understand what they're saying I'd write something along the lines of, "Marie nodded briskly and babbled something into her mobile in rapid French."
It depends how it's done.
>58 I do not class the usage of "taicho" as wapanese... If somebody is more used to the Japanese version, then it might feel more natural to use that than Captain.
I think that if the words are used in the right context, where the characters would normally use them -eg, in AC fic, the characters using the original language (Arabic or Italian so far) because they do in the game.
But if it's of, say, an anime or something that has been subbed/dubbed in Englosh, then it should be done in English-mainly because the whole thing is subb/dubbed usually, and the inscessant 'Hai!, 'Kawaii!', etc gets on my nerves. Alot.
Other languages in fanfiction where your character is in a country other than their own is okay, in my opinion.
If you think about it, when you go on holiday to another country wih say, your mother or your father, to... perhaps France, if you call your mother 'Mum' and your father 'Dad' you're not suddenly going to start calling your mother 'Mere' and your father 'Pere' whilst your over there, but you may still speak French whilst there.
It's the same if your fic is a Japanese person in another country, he/she will probably call their parents 'okasan' or 'otousan' (sorry can't spell either of them and I don't pretend I can) automatically. So therefore, it's actually a good opportunity to add in a bit of character development. By that I mean that the other characters ask what they mean and learn a new word in a different language. Later in the fic, they accept it as normal, hence character development.
Also the 'chan', 'san' and 'sama' thing is acceptable, because that's how you know how close an individual is to a person. Plus, if you are writing a story involving nobles, the 'sama' thing may hint at that without directly refering to that, thus giving the reader a subtle hint for them to pick up on their own.
Full sentances in another language can be irritating. I found a Trinity Blood fanfiction where there was a man who spoke next to nothing but French so I had to keep flipping down to the authors notes. However, lived with it and I got through it. It was only one chapter and the rest of the fanfiction was well written, so the use of more than one language may not neccessarily destroy a fic.
And also, because I know how some people feel about the word; 'kawaii' is something that tends to occur when a Japaese individual is so delighted with something that they just start gushing in Japanese. it happens, even if the person gushing is only a student who takes Japanese as a class. I have a friend who is trying to learn Japanese and an aunt who breeds dogs. Said friend who's just out of Japanese class, plus puppies, equals friend gushing in Japanese; the most common word being 'Kawaii'. Thus that I have founbd 'kawaii' to be excellent for emphasis.
Sorry for talkinh mainly about Japanese and French; these are the two languages I come across mainly and Japanese seems to be at the centre of most arguments on this subject.
Other languages in fanfiction where your character is in a country other than their own is okay, in my opinion.
If you think about it, when you go on holiday to another country wih say, your mother or your father, to... perhaps France, if you call your mother 'Mum' and your father 'Dad' you're not suddenly going to start calling your mother 'Mere' and your father 'Pere' whilst your over there, but you may still speak French whilst there.
It's the same if your fic is a Japanese person in another country, he/she will probably call their parents 'okasan' or 'otousan' (sorry can't spell either of them and I don't pretend I can) automatically. So therefore, it's actually a good opportunity to add in a bit of character development. By that I mean that the other characters ask what they mean and learn a new word in a different language. Later in the fic, they accept it as normal, hence character development.
Also the 'chan', 'san' and 'sama' thing is acceptable, because that's how you know how close an individual is to a person. Plus, if you are writing a story involving nobles, the 'sama' thing may hint at that without directly refering to that, thus giving the reader a subtle hint for them to pick up on their own.
Full sentances in another language can be irritating. I found a Trinity Blood fanfiction where there was a man who spoke next to nothing but French so I had to keep flipping down to the authors notes. However, lived with it and I got through it. It was only one chapter and the rest of the fanfiction was well written, so the use of more than one language may not neccessarily destroy a fic.
And also, because I know how some people feel about the word; 'kawaii' is something that tends to occur when a Japaese individual is so delighted with something that they just start gushing in Japanese. it happens, even if the person gushing is only a student who takes Japanese as a class. I have a friend who is trying to learn Japanese and an aunt who breeds dogs. Said friend who's just out of Japanese class, plus puppies, equals friend gushing in Japanese; the most common word being 'Kawaii'. Thus that I have founbd 'kawaii' to be excellent for emphasis.
Sorry for talkinh mainly about Japanese and French; these are the two languages I come across mainly and Japanese seems to be at the centre of most arguments on this subject.
Other languages in fanfiction where your character is in a country other than their own is okay, in my opinion.
If you think about it, when you go on holiday to another country wih say, your mother or your father, to... perhaps France, if you call your mother 'Mum' and your father 'Dad' you're not suddenly going to start calling your mother 'Mere' and your father 'Pere' whilst your over there, but you may still speak French whilst there.
It's the same if your fic is a Japanese person in another country, he/she will probably call their parents 'okasan' or 'otousan' (sorry can't spell either of them and I don't pretend I can) automatically. So therefore, it's actually a good opportunity to add in a bit of character development. By that I mean that the other characters ask what they mean and learn a new word in a different language. Later in the fic, they accept it as normal, hence character development.
Also the 'chan', 'san' and 'sama' thing is acceptable, because that's how you know how close an individual is to a person. Plus, if you are writing a story involving nobles, the 'sama' thing may hint at that without directly refering to that, thus giving the reader a subtle hint for them to pick up on their own.
Full sentances in another language can be irritating. I found a Trinity Blood fanfiction where there was a man who spoke next to nothing but French so I had to keep flipping down to the authors notes. However, lived with it and I got through it. It was only one chapter and the rest of the fanfiction was well written, so the use of more than one language may not neccessarily destroy a fic.
And also, because I know how some people feel about the word; 'kawaii' is something that tends to occur when a Japaese individual is so delighted with something that they just start gushing in Japanese. it happens, even if the person gushing is only a student who takes Japanese as a class. I have a friend who is trying to learn Japanese and an aunt who breeds dogs. Said friend who's just out of Japanese class, plus puppies, equals friend gushing in Japanese; the most common word being 'Kawaii'. Thus that I have founbd 'kawaii' to be excellent for emphasis.
Sorry for talkinh mainly about Japanese and French; these are the two languages I come across mainly and Japanese seems to be at the centre of most arguments on this subject.
Sorry that came up multiple times. The computer went a little mad.
There was a chapter in a fic I was reading recently, where the whole point was that the main character (a young Japanese man) was completely out of his depth -- he went charging off to Paris in search of answers, only later realising that he didn't actually know any French, and his English was very out of practise.
So rather than provide translations, the author simply left the audience stranded - like the character was. And the attempts at communicating in English were stilted and awkward.
To me, that's the way it should be done.
I only use Japanese words if the character is officially meant to be Japanese. Then of course, when the story evolves, other people in his/her enivormnet will be able to say some Japanese words but he/she will also be able to talk English better.
When I write a fic and it's set in Japan, only the Japanese use more words in their language; the others also talk Japanese but I keep them most in English.
Keep it whatever language the person writing it is. I hate Wapanese-style writing.
If your character is Japanese, they can speak Japanese, just as someone in real-life says words from their native language!
However, for simplicity, whenever two characters are conversing in their own language, it's in 'English', so no hassle at all.
What would people think about "nonsense" sentences - say in a text - which is explained in-fic by somebody noticing that the wrong kana has been used?
(Say, the difference between "coma" and "root crops", which is a single kana, "konsui" as opposed to "konsai".)
What would people think about "nonsense" sentences - say in a text - which is explained in-fic by somebody noticing that the wrong kana has been used?
(Say, the difference between "coma" and "root crops", which is a single kana, "konsui" as opposed to "konsai".)
>>79
That's true, when talking about things to other people if one has taken a basic language course, it should be expected for them to refer in that language; it would make more sense.
I have used the mother and father thing with slip-ups, where the character forgot for a moment that they were in a country other than their own. It ended with questioning gazes and a lot of explaining.
As for the kawaii thing, the only time I actually used it was when I actually used it for emphasis was when a character was very drunk and found something cute. Normally when someone's 'gushing' I just put 'he/she released a rapid stream of insert native language here words excidedly.' However when I was talking about someone being drunk it was 'he/she slurred out a collection of words, the only distinguishable one being a heavily mangled 'kawaii'.' Although that was something That I had a character say when describing a friend getting drunk.
As for my friend. It only happens when her brain's shot after Japanese class ('kawaii' isn't the only word, I hear whole passages when she has to learn something for a test. I kinda do my best not to try and work out what is being said, I get headaches.). She'll be like that until we get some coffee into her and she's sat down for five. Then she'll put away her papers and speak English again. I wouldn't call it legit, but it happens. Regular occurence of insanity is a more accurate description.
As an anime writer/reader, and also as a person who has studied Japanese for several years, I greatly dislike and am insulted by fangirl Japanese. I am insulted in the sense that people screw it up all the time, not in the sense you're interested enough to attempt to use it. I dislike it because it ruins the flow of the story. I can easily translate the words or half sentences, as long as they were written correctly, or translated properly, but other people can't. Also, the way people Romanize (put into English alphabet) Japanese words is different for each person. For instance, doozo and douzo are both correct, but are both spelled differently. I feel if you have characters in Japan, where everyone speaks Japanese, then there's no point in using Japanese words in an English written (or another language) fanfic, because everyone knows it is spoken in Japanese. The only time I feel Japanese is okay is when there are things that can't be translated, that are distinctly Japanese, such as a kimono. Most everyone knows what that is, and if you think they might not, you can add it as a culture note, or perhaps subtly explain it in the narrative/dialogue. Another time Japanese might be appropriate is when a Japanese person visits another country, and you want to emphasize lingual differences. However, when that situation comes up for me, I usually indicate that a foreign language is written in italics when spoken, and don't even bother with a different language, to avoid translation mistakes and an interruption of the flow in my story by forcing my reader to read translations. That's how I feel personally, anyway.
I still use Japanese honorifics and words when there isn't a translation that I'm aware of (like I used shiro-maku for a wedding scene), because even though its written in English, they are still speaking in Japanese. Now, this isn't for randomly spouting out words in a fic, I'm talking about honorifics only. Like, in a fic I'm writing, I mentioned that a character, who is very formal and cold, was off-put by someone downgrading his honorific from 'san' to 'kun' after knowing him for like, an hour.
Other than that, it's kind of annoying. I can only see it being used legitimately if the person is learning English and uses some other words some times.
IMHO, it's kind of annoying to see it done with other languages in the Hetalia fandom. I can see France or Spain using pet names in their own languages, but Russia doesn't need a "da?" after everything he says. :< /rant
I usually don't like it, but it kind of depends on the situation. For instance, if a character has an obviously Japanese nickname I'll still use it, for example in K-ON where Azusa's nickname is Azu-nyan, Ritsu's nickname is Ricchan and Sawako's nickname is Sawa-chan-sensei. Another instance is when an event or object has a name that sounds way better than its translation. Finally, I use it for things like nii-san and nee-san, but not father or mother. Why so selective? Well, calling your brother 'Brother' sounds kind of stupid in English, save a few occasions where it's plausible. On the other hand, calling your father 'Father' or 'Dad' is perfectly normal.
I agree with KatonRyu (87). The situation changes everything. If it's a rather pointless word easily translated, such as things like "kawaii," then it probably shouldn't be there. However, there are certain terms which highlight character relationships in far more depth than English can manage, especially honorifics or titles. There's a huge difference between someone referring to another by "lastname-san" or even "lastname-kun" and the far more relaxed English custom of calling someone by their first name alone. The cultural connotations can make the honorifics quite necessary.
On another note, little Japanese words here and there don't necessarily bother me too much. It's when someone tries to show off by writing an entire sentence in Japanese that I get a little bothered. A syllable like "ne?" at the end of a question or statement is...do-able. An entire phrase, well, that's pushing the issue a bit.
I think that it's okay to use Japanese sometimes. Like in nicknames, insults, and words that shouldn't be translated(kimono, sushi, etc.) I mean, it sorta sounds better if Sasuke calls Naruto dobe insted of loser some of the time. However, it is not exceptable for someone to use a word and not translate it in the end.
I think that it's okay to use Japanese sometimes. Like in nicknames, insults, and words that shouldn't be translated(kimono, sushi, etc.) I mean, it sorta sounds better if Sasuke calls Naruto dobe insted of loser some of the time. However, it is not exceptable for someone to use a word and not translate it in the end.
Daisuki, Marth, daisuki.
I might do that, but only if the character is in fact Japanese and would use that term or honorifix (sp.). If it's a manga or anime based in an English (or any other language for that matter) speaking country, I'll drop those.